Lara Disappionted over pontings comment

[Linda]

Ok, my bad if it was 30 and not 64.

Still, if the reason why ponting sent in bichel ahead of lee was that bichel could actually play a long innings, how was that a masterstroke as opposed to plain commonsense ?
I suppose you want to imply that any other captain would have sent in a guy who couldnt bat ?

Orangepitch, why do you constantly feel the need to disect the examples we give of good Punter captaincy, and wave them off as "commonsense"?

And yes yes, we know all the praises about Flemings captaincy, but how about some cold, hard evidence? Its only fair (I know its there, I just wanna hear you say it)

 

[luckyeddie]

Ponting shows he's got captaincy clues
Michael Crutcher - 25 March 2002

Ponting's confidence reflected his approach to the leadership in the first matches since Waugh's axing, bringing together a team minus injured players Shane Warne (hamstring), Michael Bevan (hamstring) and Ian Harvey (shoulder).

Replacements Jimmy Maher, Shane Watson and Nathan Hauritz were key figures in the second match and Ponting defused another late blast from Lance Klusener (59 in 59 balls) as South Africa was dismissed for 181 in reply to 8-226.

Ponting used Darren Lehmann's part-time spin to outwit Klusener, who holed out to deep mid-wicket, and also claimed the key wicket of Jacques Kallis to a catch at a specially-placed short cover-point.

They were clever moves and showed Ponting had learned well under Waugh's relentless captaincy.

Try this one, then.....

So far, Ponting has made captaincy look like the easiest thing in the world. He has flicked the switch, stood back ten yards and enjoyed the show. It has, as a consequence, been hard to assess what type of captain he is. We have not yet seen a trademark manoeuvre, like Nasser Hussain's off- or leg-theory, or Stephen Fleming's eccentric bowling changes. But then, we haven't yet needed to.

What we do know is that Ponting can lead by example. His stunning 140 not out in the World Cup final was one of the great captain's innings, even if it was antithetical to the rugged, resourceful archetype. But then Ponting seems almost antithetical to the notion of the classic, cold-eyed captain.

Rob Smyth, February 2004

Two years on from your article , I find someone else who basically is agreeing with everything I have said - that Ponting hasn't revealed much for anyone to hang their hat on yet - purely and simply because he hasn't had to.

People on here are not knocking Ponting's captaincy - what they are trying to do is get it through to you that he doesn't seem to have had to do a lot with respect to making captaincy type decisions just yet.

 

[Linda]

Two years on from your article , I find someone else who basically is agreeing with everything I have said - that Ponting hasn't revealed much for anyone to hang their hat on yet - purely and simply because he hasn't had to.

People on here are not knocking Ponting's captaincy - what they are trying to do is get it through to you that he doesn't seem to have had to do a lot with respect to making captaincy type decisions just yet.

You did ask for examples though, and Scallywag is still trying to feed you.

 

[luckyeddie]

You did ask for examples though, and Scallywag is still trying to feed you.

I did, he has, I'm grateful

 

[Linda]

He asked too. Wheres his?
Oh, it is an unjust world, is it not..

 

[Scallywag]

"We have not yet seen a trademark manoeuvre, like Nasser Hussain's off- or leg-theory, or Stephen Fleming's eccentric bowling changes. But then, we haven't yet needed to. "


67 games without having to use any captiancy skills to beat every team including 2nd best team India 10 out of 12 games. Dont you think that sounds a bit arrogant.

 

[krkode]

On the contrary, LE. I will be laughing. After all, Australia won both games.

Suck on them apples, losers.

Mmm....can I have some more?

 

[luckyeddie]

He asked too. Wheres his?
Oh, it is an unjust world, is it not..

I am perfectly willing to supply any number of examples of good captaincy, only it is on one condition only - and that is that Scallywag demonstrates hiss willingness to learn how to use the 'quote' tags.

However, if he just takes a sentence completely out of the context in which it was first presented:

We have not yet seen a trademark manoeuvre, like Nasser Hussain's off- or leg-theory, or Stephen Fleming's eccentric bowling changes. But then, we haven't yet needed to

and use it to accuse the author (Rob Smyth) of arrogance when the statement was designed to have totally the opposite effect, then I feel it is highly unlikely that he will ever master that most simple of concepts.

 

[Scallywag]

However, if he just takes a sentence completely out of the context in which it was first presented:



.

So luckyeddie when I gave examples of Pontings captaincy you didnt take them out of the context they were presented in.

 

[Scallywag]

Well Luckyeddie I'm waiting for your examples.

Or were you a master baiter trying to bluff me.

Your call.

 

[luckyeddie]

Having already paid lip-service to the innovative field-settings of Nasser Hussain and the way Fleming uses his bowlers, I'll give you a few more examples of why captaincy isn't just winning the toss and deciding the batting order.

Diplomacy, handling players, handling potential flashpoints during the game

1. Before Frank Worrell was appointed to the captaincy of the West Indies, the various factions from the different islands tended to stick together, Trinidadians with their compatriots, Jamaicans with theirs etc. Worrell upon appointment to the captaincy instigated team meetings, overcame inherent racism within and around the side (before him, the West Indies were always captained by white players). It doesn't sound a lot by Ponting's standards, but it instantly transformed the West Indies into a team as opposed to a collection of individuals. He also instructed his players to 'walk', which immediately got the crowd on his team's side.

2. 2nd test against England, Lords, 1963. West Indies 1-0 up in the series, England fighting back. Final over of the game, 2 balls to go, England require 6 to win, the last pair Gubby Allen and Colin Cowdrey at the wicket (Cowdrey with a broken arm). As Wes Hall's about to start his run-up, Worrell comes over to him and has a chat with the bowler. All he's actually saying to Wes is "don't bowl any no-balls, we are one up in the series". Allen manages to keep out the last two balls but cannot score, thus ensuring the draw. West Indies eventually win the series 3-1.

Handling players

3. Mike Brearley was thought by many to be the finest captain of the last 50 years. He attributes his success to one thing only - getting the best out of Ian Botham.His technique was simple - he put his arm around his shoulder and told him how great he was, and how the Australians were terrified of him.

Doing what the other captain least expects

4. Old Trafford, 1997. There has been overnight rain, the pitch is really green and looks as though it's going to seam a lot. It's also quite soft. The obvious thing to do is field, yet Mark Taylor chose to bat. It's a real struggle at first, everyone thinks Taylor's gone mad. The aussies eventually make 235 with Steve Waugh playing (IMO) his greatest-ever innings. It's decisive - on the second day, Warne exploits the bowlers' footmarks (remember I said it was soft?) and England are skittled for 160 or so. The Aussies make the most of the best of the wicket (day 3, morning of day 4), bat the game out of sight. Then England are bowled out again by lunch on day 5 - job done. The way the wicket dried, if he had chosen to bowl, the outcome might have been different.

Applying pressure

5. Take any of the recent three tests between the West Indies and England - and just look at the way that Vaughan applied pressure to the new batsmen. The almost uncanny parallels between the first three tests were down to one thing and one thing only - knowing when to apply pressure.

Making the most of your weapons

6. Just ask Brian Lara whether he likes facing Darren Gough. A few years ago, almost every time Lara came out to bat, Hussain would immediately bring Gough back into the attack, no matter what the state of play. He got him out in the series five times for single figures.

 

[Scallywag]

Luckeddie I think you should go for Dopyeddie, you have provided nothing that I havent allready shown Ponting to have done.

 

[krkode]

Ponting is [a] scallywag.

 

[Scallywag]

Having already paid lip-service to the innovative field-settings of Nasser Hussain and the way Fleming uses his bowlers, I'll give you a few more examples of why captaincy isn't just winning the toss and deciding the batting order.

Diplomacy, handling players, handling potential flashpoints during the game

1. Before Frank Worrell was appointed to the captaincy of the West Indies, the various factions from the different islands tended to stick together, Trinidadians with their compatriots, Jamaicans with theirs etc. Worrell upon appointment to the captaincy instigated team meetings, overcame inherent racism within and around the side (before him, the West Indies were always captained by white players). It doesn't sound a lot by Ponting's standards, but it instantly transformed the West Indies into a team as opposed to a collection of individuals. He also instructed his players to 'walk', which immediately got the crowd on his team's side.

2. 2nd test against England, Lords, 1963. West Indies 1-0 up in the series, England fighting back. Final over of the game, 2 balls to go, England require 6 to win, the last pair Gubby Allen and Colin Cowdrey at the wicket (Cowdrey with a broken arm). As Wes Hall's about to start his run-up, Worrell comes over to him and has a chat with the bowler. All he's actually saying to Wes is "don't bowl any no-balls, we are one up in the series". Allen manages to keep out the last two balls but cannot score, thus ensuring the draw. West Indies eventually win the series 3-1.

Handling players

3. Mike Brearley was thought by many to be the finest captain of the last 50 years. He attributes his success to one thing only - getting the best out of Ian Botham.His technique was simple - he put his arm around his shoulder and told him how great he was, and how the Australians were terrified of him.

Doing what the other captain least expects

4. Old Trafford, 1997. There has been overnight rain, the pitch is really green and looks as though it's going to seam a lot. It's also quite soft. The obvious thing to do is field, yet Mark Taylor chose to bat. It's a real struggle at first, everyone thinks Taylor's gone mad. The aussies eventually make 235 with Steve Waugh playing (IMO) his greatest-ever innings. It's decisive - on the second day, Warne exploits the bowlers' footmarks (remember I said it was soft?) and England are skittled for 160 or so. The Aussies make the most of the best of the wicket (day 3, morning of day 4), bat the game out of sight. Then England are bowled out again by lunch on day 5 - job done. The way the wicket dried, if he had chosen to bowl, the outcome might have been different.

Applying pressure

5. Take any of the recent three tests between the West Indies and England - and just look at the way that Vaughan applied pressure to the new batsmen. The almost uncanny parallels between the first three tests were down to one thing and one thing only - knowing when to apply pressure.

Making the most of your weapons

6. Just ask Brian Lara whether he likes facing Darren Gough. A few years ago, almost every time Lara came out to bat, Hussain would immediately bring Gough back into the attack, no matter what the state of play. He got him out in the series five times for single figures.

Hussians leg side field is a negative tactic to slow the scoring, used mainly in grade cricket because the bowling is not very accurate.

Flemming was quoted as being "eccentric" it did not metion anything else, my dictionary reads eccentric as "a person who behaves unconventionally or oddly".

1) Ponting was the captain of a little island called Tasmainia and he got all the states together and called them AUSTRALIA and look at them now.

2) I admit Ponting may have told Wes Hall to bowl a few no balls to see what would happen.

3) Ponting was thought by many to be the finest captain of the last 50 years. He attributes his success to one thing only - getting the best out of Warne. His technique was simple - he put his arm around his shoulder and told him how great he was, and how the English were terrified of him.

4) Ponting told Taylor to bat.

5)Take any of the recent three tests between the Aussies and Sri Lanka - and just look at the way that Ponting applied pressure to the new batsmen. The almost uncanny parallels between the first three tests were down to one thing and one thing only - knowing when to apply pressure.

6) Just ask Ponting if he likes bowlers in finals.

 

[THE G-TRAIN]

Lol, right on Scal! Keep fightin the good fight. This argument is going no where! We all know Ponting is a good captain. I think steve fleming is also a good captian. Currently, probably the best, although Punter hasnt yet had the chance in tests. In One dayers, Ponting is probably the best. So it is just a natural feeling we have that Ponting can carry that form and abilty over to the longer version. Good Captaincy is not just about making a tactical desicion that pays off. Its a combination of a number of things ranging from cricket ability, to mental stamina...and scores of other things.
Earlier in this discussion, Scall was trying to give examples of Punters tactical skill and abilty. Someone then suggested that fleming was better, and scal asked for that persons proof of such ability. So far i havent seen any proof that fleming is a good captain at all because everyone just ignored that bit...yet i still know that fleming is a good captain. This discussion could go till september, and by then we might have a few people begin to agree with parts of this...But can you be bothered?! Just all agree that Punter is a champ. A great cricketer, leading by example to take the aussies to another world cup victory...not to mention all of the ICC series wins beforehand!

 

[Deja moo]

Orangepitch, why do you constantly feel the need to disect the examples we give of good Punter captaincy, and wave them off as "commonsense"?

And yes yes, we know all the praises about Flemings captaincy, but how about some cold, hard evidence? Its only fair (I know its there, I just wanna hear you say it)

1) I have never ever in all my posts at cricketweb mentioned anything regarding Flemings captaincy. The simple reason being that with the amount of cricket being played nowadays, I restrict my viewing to mainly India matches. So, not having watched nzl play that very often , I am in no position to comment on Flemings captaincy.

2) Secondly , I think we need to seperate the two issues of Captaincy and leadership.

Bringing together players of different backgrounds , creating team spirit ,instilling confidence in your players is leadership.

The field placings , bowling changes , plotting a batsmans fall etc come under captaincy.

And having watched India take on Australia so many times in the last year , i think ganguly has been a better captain than ponting .

 

[THE G-TRAIN]

I agree with most of that orange except I think Ganguly is a pretty ordinary captain. And he is one who certainly doesnt lead by example. He is restricted in his strokeplay to the off side (generally), cannot play short balls near the body or towards the leg side. He is a very very ordinary fielder. Seems like a bit of an 'idiot' (couldnt think of anything else with swearing), was 5 minutes late for the toss before a game on 4 or 5 consecutive occasions just for the sake of it, makes bad field placements. Rarely seems to attack with field placements etc. If thats what it takes to be a great captain, well i guess he is MILES ahead of Ponting.

 

[THE G-TRAIN]

Those points about his batting dont have a whole lot to do with captaincy...just an observation. I think he used to be an awesome batsman, but i think hes lost it lately and been out cheaply alot recently, because other teams have figured him out.

 

[Deja moo]

I agree with most of that orange except I think Ganguly is a pretty ordinary captain. And he is one who certainly doesnt lead by example. He is restricted in his strokeplay to the off side (generally), cannot play short balls near the body or towards the leg side. He is a very very ordinary fielder. Seems like a bit of an 'idiot' (couldnt think of anything else with swearing), was 5 minutes late for the toss before a game on 4 or 5 consecutive occasions just for the sake of it, makes bad field placements. Rarely seems to attack with field placements etc. If thats what it takes to be a great captain, well i guess he is MILES ahead of Ponting.

In the ODI's in the VB series, Ganguly did a great job running Australia so close ( except for the finals ) without any experienced bowlers .

In the first match , he did lead by example . He would have won India the match were it not for a stupid run out.

Second and third matches were great examples of good captaincy . australia were running away with both matches...but with his limited resources and excellent plotting, Australia were made to collapse in both matches from very strong positions. one match was won by India while the third required a six off the last over ( a situation which was unimaginable halfway through the aussie innings....they had the match pretty much in their pockets ).

 

[Gaijin-san]

Second and third matches were great examples of good captaincy . australia were running away with both matches...but with his limited resources and excellent plotting, Australia were made to collapse in both matches from very strong positions. one match was won by India while the third required a six off the last over ( a situation which was unimaginable halfway through the aussie innings....they had the match pretty much in their pockets ).

Bad example. They lost. The captain isn't there to just cause batting collapses and look pretty doing it.

How you win and how you lose are inconsequential; it's that it happens that is important.