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Kapil/Jadeja vs Botham/Flintoff

Better AR pair


  • Total voters
    22

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
this is blatantly untrue, Botham functionally bowed off after 10 years and came back here and there to sell stadiums and barely even played at home, he played 81% of the away games he could until 1987 (43/53) while Jadeja's number since 2013 is close to 50% (36/70)
So we should like just not count them at all?? Yk that Jadeja debuted in late 2012 and wasn't a regular from the very beginning right?
 

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
So we should like just not count them at all?? Yk that Jadeja debuted in late 2012 and wasn't a regular from the very beginning right?
count them to your overall stats if you want but pretending that's a valid metric for how often he was benched away from home is straight up silly.
 

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
And the other diarrhead all over their pants spectacularly, yes
even if he averages 25 in South Africa over 10 Tests (which would be decent) which he won't, that would already bring his away average down significantly, once again, his average away is so high because India doesn't think he is worth playing in what is by far their biggest challenge overseas, wasn't the same with Botham.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
count them to your overall stats if you want but pretending that's a valid metric for how often he was benched away from home is straight up silly.
If Botham's Wi away record doesn't counts since Jadeja never faced similar quality opposition, it's very valid that they played roughly a similar proportion of games Home and Away, yes. Actually the second point is significantly sounder
 

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
If Botham's Wi away record doesn't counts since Jadeja never faced similar quality opposition, it's very valid that they played roughly a similar proportion of games Home and Away, yes. Actually the second point is significantly sounder
These two points literally have zero correlation, Botham wasn't a regular Cricketer after 1986-87 Ashes and he was unquestionably first choice overseas until then.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
even if he averages 25 in South Africa over 10 Tests (which would be decent) which he won't, that would already bring his away average down significantly, once again, his average away is so high because India doesn't think he is worth playing in what is by far their biggest challenge overseas, wasn't the same with Botham.
So English selectors were right to bench Freddie?? Jadeja has a 5-fer there in 1 of his 2 games, Indian selectors mistreating Jadeja and Ashwin for trundy pacers is very well documented. And I honestly expect him to average around 27-28 atleast.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
These two points literally have zero correlation, Botham wasn't a regular Cricketer after 1986-87 Ashes and he was unquestionably first choice overseas until then.
They definitely are. You said Botham's WI record doesn't count because Jadeja didn't face them, and then said Jadeja played more at Home than Botham when it's just not true.
 

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
So English selectors were right to bench Freddie?? Jadeja has a 5-fer there in 1 of his 2 games, Indian selectors mistreating Jadeja and Ashwin for trundy pacers is very well documented. And I honestly expect him to average around 27-28 atleast.
Freddie was not dropped for Cricketing Reasons and we both know that so that's just a false equivalency, regardless, England called him immediately for overseas tours against the big two and left him out of feasting on South Africa and the Asian sides. No way I think he can average 27-28 tbh, 20-25 at best, but the point stands, if Jadeja played in South Africa which can emulate the difficulty of Botham's West Indies tours, he won't average more than Botham overseas, if any at all.
 
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Johan

Hall of Fame Member
They definitely are. You said Botham's WI record doesn't count because Jadeja didn't face them, and then said Jadeja played more at Home than Botham when it's just not true.
what's blatantly untrue is saying they have a similar rate of overseas games, Botham played 43/53 until 1986-87 Ashes, it's like saying George Headley was dropped more often than Jadeja overseas because he missed the Post-War India/England/Australia tours even though his career extended till 1954 on a technicality.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Wait a second why are we suddenly saying Jadeja would struggle to average 25 in South Africa? I wish we had him last time we toured there, Ashwin can’t bat #7.
And Jadeja is also really a better bat than at least half the spuds we’ve selected over the years from 1-6.
IMG_5508.jpeg
 

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Wait a second why are we suddenly saying Jadeja would struggle to average 25 in South Africa? I wish we had him last time we toured there, Ashwin can’t bat #7.
I don't think it's possible for a #6 or #7 to average more than 25 given the type of pitches South Africa have produced for India since circa 2018. Only guys to average 25+ for India are Kohli, Pant and Rahul, all being proper bats who are either great (Pant) or showed glimpses of greatness often.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
I don't think it's possible for a #6 or #7 to average more than 25 given the type of pitches South Africa have produced for India since circa 2018. Only guys to average 25+ for India are Kohli, Pant and Rahul, all being proper bats who are either great (Pant) or showed glimpses of greatness often.
Kohli averaged 40+ on the last tour, and he was washed up by that point. Jadeja has been a better bat than him since 2020 (see above).
KL averaged 37 last time. There’s an argument for Jadeja as well, though KL has been shifted around the order and been in and out (best at opening and the opening tax that comes with it). I see no reason why with enough tests, say 8 or so, he couldn’t average 25+ or even 30ish if not higher. But being realistic, 25-30 is certainly doable given that’s his floor everywhere else.
 

ma1978

International Regular
Kohli averaged 40+ on the last tour, and he was washed up by that point. Jadeja has been a better bat than him since 2020 (see above).
KL averaged 37 last time. There’s an argument for Jadeja as well, though KL has been shifted around the order and been in and out (best at opening and the opening tax that comes with it). I see no reason why with enough tests, say 8 or so, he couldn’t average 25+ or even 30ish if not higher. But being realistic, 25-30 is certainly doable given that’s his floor everywhere else.
Exactly, why would he do so much worse in SA than Aus for example
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Especially away from home (and even at home to be honest), I have long been clamouring for Jadeja to bat 6.
5 is definitely too high for him, but he could do a good job at 6, though best at 7 probably.
But given our balance issues and that whatever shitty bat we pick barely gives us better output than Jadeja would at 6, we may as well have picked him as a batting all rounder. It would have allowed us to pick Ashwin as well, and more recently Kuldeep.
 

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Kohli averaged 40+ on the last tour, and he was washed up by that point. Jadeja has been a better bat than him since 2020 (see above).
KL averaged 37 last time. There’s an argument for Jadeja as well, though KL has been shifted around the order and been in and out (best at opening and the opening tax that comes with it). I see no reason why with enough tests, say 8 or so, he couldn’t average 25+ or even 30ish if not higher. But being realistic, 25-30 is certainly doable given that’s his floor everywhere else.
Kohli was having a flash of brilliance there, he genuinely seemed exceptional there and some of his batting has been ridiculous in South Africa even from the standard of his very prime.

It's not gonna be his floor in Saffer though, for example in last ten years Rahul averages 27 in South Africa, and he is a better batsman than Jadeja as he showed this series itself, those pitches have been impossible to bat in and record some of the lowest scoring games in history of the sport.
 

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