Kapil/Jadeja vs Botham/Flintoff

[ImpatientLime]

If Botham was so much better why are his numbers so much worse

they're not. you've picked one number and fixated on it.

 

[subshakerz]

If Botham was so much better why are his numbers so much worse

They aren't. Better RPI and more tons.

 

[subshakerz]

He may been a frontline bat for longer but clearly a worse bat

Sorry if Jadeja was Frontline quality he would have been selected for it instead of being benched, especially when India were facing middle order issues overseas.

 

[Johan]

can debate more match winning performances

centuries are arbitrary. Jadeja has 32 scores past 50 in 128 innings (25%). Botham has 36 scores past fifty in 161 innings (22%)

and then the consistency abroad and the West Indies issue w Botham

Can’t see the argument for Botham

Centuries isn't an arbitrary metric, fifties rarely win you matches, hundreds do, and hundreds are a metric whether one likes it or not because that shows your ability to produce match winning or defining performances. Jadeja probably has a mean higher score but when discussing batsmen who average in the 30s, your match impact and ability to dominate games is a big point. Their runoutput is identical so not like a huge gap in consistency.

Regarding West Indies, Jadeja has better stats abroad by one statistic because he doesn't get to play every game, his own team doesn't play him in South Africa which is the toughest place to bat in nowadays and the biggest challenge for Indian Batsmen overseas, India has played ten Tests in South Africa in his career span and he has appeared in two, if he appeared another 16 times, for all we know he'd have his own version of West Indies, but they don't even play him there because they straight up don't see the value. Botham failed the toughest challenge yes, but Jadeja warming the bench for what would be his biggest challenge isn't the flex you think it is.

Regarding overseas consistency, Botham has 2 hundreds in Australia, 2 hundreds in India and 2 in New Zealand while Jadeja has just 2 overseas hundreds both in England, Jadeja is a more consistent batsman overseas but Botham still has a greater body of work and more marquee performances overseas with the bat. Their runoutput even overseas is identical, and once again, 3 times more hundreds in just 20% more innings.

 

[ma1978]

Sorry if Jadeja was Frontline quality he would have been selected for it instead of being benched, especially when India were facing middle order issues overseas.

you keep using this argument va confronting the plainly obvious reality

 

[Johan]

ah but you see, sample size is too small because he wasn't considered good enough to be a regular starter on tours to south africa.

Yup, having your management believe Shardul Thakur and Mukesh Kumar has more value than you in their toughest tour abroad by a batting standpoint makes you a much better Batsman.

 

[subshakerz]

you keep using this argument va confronting the plainly obvious reality

No because you yourself know that a few years ago you wouldn't be arguing Jadeja is good enough to bat top six. So I have to remind you.

 

[ma1978]

No because you yourself know that a few years ago you wouldn't be arguing Jadeja is good enough to bat top six. So I have to remind you.

facts change, circumstances change, players prove you wrong. Jadeja has done that and not just in the last series.

 

[subshakerz]

facts change, circumstances change, players prove you wrong. Jadeja has done that and not just in the last series.

Thanks for not disagreeing with me. You wouldn't select him.

 

[ma1978]

Thanks for not disagreeing with me. You wouldn't select him.

that’s not t all what I said. In the aggregate he’s a better than Botham and now he’s a much better bat than Botham ever was. This is plainly obvious to anyone with basic analytic abilities

 

[Johan]

I already completely refuted Jadeja's case above.

 

[subshakerz]

that’s not t all what I said. In the aggregate he’s a better than Botham and now he’s a much better bat than Botham ever was. This is plainly obvious to anyone with basic analytic abilities

You don't deny that a few years ago you wouldnt put Jadeja in the top six.

That's all I wanted to know. Makes my point for me.

 

[subshakerz]

I already completely refuted Jadeja's case above.

I agree mostly but for me the fact that Botham had to regularly take a middle order bat pressure throughout their careers sets him apart.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Jadeja averages 2.67 in South Africa.

In 2 innings yes.

 

[Johan]

In 2 innings yes.

3, and warming the bench isn't the flex you think it is.

 

[capt_Luffy]

3, and warming the bench isn't the flex you think it is.

Like Botham the undroppable?? Yk their percentage of Home and Away games is almost the same and only one was competing with one of the best Spinner all-rounders ever.

 

[Johan]

Like Botham the undroppable??

If Botham was dropped from the Windies tours you'd unironically probably have him a whole tier higher.

 

[ma1978]

You don't deny that a few years ago you wouldnt put Jadeja in the top six.

That's all I wanted to know. Makes my point for me.

the only point you should take away is my view of your analytic ineptitude

 

[capt_Luffy]

If Botham was dropped from the Windies tours you'd unironically probably have him a whole tier higher.

Like then his and Jadeja's averages line-up quite well.

 

[Johan]

Like Botham the undroppable?? Yk their percentage of Home and Away games is almost the same and only one was competing with one of the best Spinner all-rounders ever.

this is blatantly untrue, Botham functionally bowed off after 10 years and came back here and there to sell stadiums and barely even played at home, he played 81% of the away games he could until 1987 (43/53) while Jadeja's number since 2013 is close to 50% (36/70)