Joe Root vs Virat Kohli vs Kane Williamson in Tests

[flibbertyjibber]

Williamsons away record reflects that he's a worse player than Root, unless we're just going to ignore that.

You said best player overall so why are you moving the goalposts now?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

The judgement is overall in Tests. You didn't specify away. Williamson has performed very well at home and neutral. He also bats 3. Overall there is average daylight for Williamson. I consider runs at 3 more of a contribution for the team also.

Thats like saying Warner is better than Cook because his overall record is better when Warner doesn't actually come near Cook due to his mediocre away record. When you judge overall, away record is a lot more important. Both are excellent at home but that's only one nation. Williamson's away record in the top 8 nations is significantly worse than Root's. He will have the oppurtunity to improve his record in India and England soon tho. Don't think batting position plays much of a role here since Root basically always comes in as a #3 with how weak his batting line up has been.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

You said best player overall so why are you moving the goalposts now?

So when you judge which player is better overall, you only look at their overall records and don't care about records in each nation? With that logic, Warner is a better test opener than Cook because his overall stats are better but Warner doesn't come close to Cook. Same reason why Graeme smith was better than Hayden and Sehwag despite having slightly worse overall stats. If you are only looking at their overall career stats and don't care about records in each country, then sure Williamson is better than Root.

 

[Bahnz]

KW's record away from home is bloodied by the fact that he debuted way younger than either Kohli or Root. If you look at his away record from the age when Root made his debut (roughly August 2012), it's pretty good - averages 48 away from home, 54 in Australia, 68 in the UAE and 63 in WI. His record in England isn't flash - averaging 32 in this period - but again it's important to remember that KW plays in different conditions to other big 4 batsmen. He's played the entirety of his England tests in the May/June window, when batting is more difficult and scores typically lower. His entire record in South Africa amounts to 3 tests (the 4th on statsguru was washed out with KW only batting for about 5 overs) less than a full tour for Kohli or Root. When you have such vanishingly small sample sizes for a lot of the places KW's toured, you really have to look at the aggregate to get a better idea of how good he's been away from home.

 

[Flem274*]

kanes 'black mark averages' are samplesizelol. failing in sri lanka for example, despite tonning up and contributing heavily to a win during taylorgate. interesting definition of failure. failing in england despite a ton at lords and being by far and away the best batsman in the world test final (dont whine at me with scores, watch the game).

the record is far from perfect, but let's not pretend there isn't a leading reason why nz are better than india and england today.

roots recent form counting but kohlis being swept under the rug is certainly a take.

 

[Bahnz]

The other aspect is that KW has throughout his career batted higher in the order. Generally speaking I'd take a guy who averages 50 at 3 over a guy who averages 50 at 4, because the conditions they're facing on average are just that little bit more difficult and the batsmen who can achieve it are that much rarer.

Having said all that Root has been imperious for the past 12 months, and done it with a genuinely terrible batting lineup around him, so he's working his way back into the conversation. I'd still give KW the slight edge though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Kane is way too much of a home track bully. Definitely overrated

 

[PlayerComparisons]

kanes 'black mark averages' are samplesizelol. failing in sri lanka for example, despite tonning up and contributing heavily to a win during taylorgate. interesting definition of failure. failing in england despite a ton at lords and being by far and away the best batsman in the world test final (dont whine at me with scores, watch the game).

the record is far from perfect, but let's not pretend there isn't a leading reason why nz are better than india and england today.

roots recent form counting but kohlis being swept under the rug is certainly a take.

Theres this thing called consistency that's pretty important. Kohli has a few centuries in England, but its still a lot more fair to say he's overall struggled in England than to say he's succeeded in England. Kane has the disadvantage of playing less, but you can only judge on what they have played so far and can't go into what ifs.. He has all the skills/talent to succeed everywhere around the world on a consistent base, but until he actually does so he can't really be considered better than someone who has performed significantly better away from home. The future tours in India and England will be huge for him. New Zealand being better than England does not indicate Williamson is better than Root lol. In that case Williamson is better than Smith because New Zealand is better than Australia. New Zealand are better than England because they actually have more than one batsmen and a better bowling attack.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

The other aspect is that KW has throughout his career batted higher in the order. Generally speaking I'd take a guy who averages 50 at 3 over a guy who averages 50 at 4, because the conditions they're facing on average are just that little bit more difficult and the batsmen who can achieve it are that much rarer.

Having said all that Root has been imperious for the past 12 months, and done it with a genuinely terrible batting lineup around him, so he's working his way back into the conversation. I'd still give KW the slight edge though.

Normally I'd agree, but I think you have to take into account that Root has had such a bad batting lineup (he's basically the only batsmen with stokes possibly being the second) around him for a while that he's basically coming in as an opener or #3 in what most players consider the hardest batting conditions in the world. Kane on the hand has a very good batting lineup around him. I get your point though.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

KW's record away from home is bloodied by the fact that he debuted way younger than either Kohli or Root. If you look at his away record from the age when Root made his debut (roughly August 2012), it's pretty good - averages 48 away from home, 54 in Australia, 68 in the UAE and 63 in WI. His record in England isn't flash - averaging 32 in this period - but again it's important to remember that KW plays in different conditions to other big 4 batsmen. He's played the entirety of his England tests in the May/June window, when batting is more difficult and scores typically lower. His entire record in South Africa amounts to 3 tests (the 4th on statsguru was washed out with KW only batting for about 5 overs) less than a full tour for Kohli or Root. When you have such vanishingly small sample sizes for a lot of the places KW's toured, you really have to look at the aggregate to get a better idea of how good he's been away from home.

Some of those are good points and I agree that you can't really say he's failed in a nation where he's only played like 3 tests. However, I still find it hard to rate him higher than someone who has performed significantly better away despite the difference in tests. All you can do is judge them on what they've played in my opinion. That said, their careers aren't over and Kane will have more opportunities in the future to fix his record. He certainly has all the tools to succeed on a consistent basis in all nations, so I hope he does.

 

[TheJediBrah]

sample size re. Kane playing away isn't an issue because when you add them all together it's still sub-par and there's nothing wrong with the sample size. You can't just say "oh if you split it all up into each category it is a small sample size so doesn't count" lmao. Imagine if you took that logic further

 

[PlayerComparisons]

sample size re. Kane playing away isn't an issue because when you add them all together it's still sub-par and there's nothing wrong with the sample size. You can't just say "oh if you split it all up into each category it is a small sample size so doesn't count" lmao. Imagine if you took that logic further

His away average excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe is 40.62...Roots is 49.07.
That is actually a way larger difference than I thought it would be.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Didn't realise what a minnow-basher Kane is too. Feels like I've been having the wool pulled over my eyes all these years

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Didn't realise what a minnow-basher Kane is too. Feels like I've been having the wool pulled over my eyes all these years

To be fair that's still pretty good. Kohli's is only around 43. I just think Root is ridiculously underrated here. For those few years where he wasn't at his best he was still quite good (I think he was still averaging around 40) and would get into any team in the world. His worst is far better than Kohli's last 2 years or so. If he has a good ashes, he will literally be averaging 40+ in every country except New Zealand where he is basically averaging 40 (39).

 

[Daemon]

KW's record away from home is bloodied by the fact that he debuted way younger than either Kohli or Root. If you look at his away record from the age when Root made his debut (roughly August 2012), it's pretty good - averages 48 away from home, 54 in Australia, 68 in the UAE and 63 in WI. His record in England isn't flash - averaging 32 in this period - but again it's important to remember that KW plays in different conditions to other big 4 batsmen. He's played the entirety of his England tests in the May/June window, when batting is more difficult and scores typically lower. His entire record in South Africa amounts to 3 tests (the 4th on statsguru was washed out with KW only batting for about 5 overs) less than a full tour for Kohli or Root. When you have such vanishingly small sample sizes for a lot of the places KW's toured, you really have to look at the aggregate to get a better idea of how good he's been away from home.

You can’t dismiss his bad record using sample size, and then in the same breath say it’s actually good when you cut out a few more bad tests, making the sample size even smaller.

The aggregates are not in his favour either.

I agree that he hasn’t had the chance to play enough in these countries when he actually got good. Unfortunately it’s just too bad lol. Root and Kohli actually have those performances so I’m inclined to think their record is slightly better.

If I were to make a guess though, if KW had been allowed the opportunity to play more overseas, his record would have been better than the other two. Sucks for him that NZC are idiots.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

KW needs to have a huge away series to reset his record. For a batsman of his qualities he has been mediocre abroad.

He was absolutely dreadful abroad the first 3 years of his career (save the 100 on debut in India) but pretty good since then. Since the start of 2014 he's had just 26 tests outside NZ (away and neutral) and averaged 55.71 with 8 100s. In that time he's averaged the following outside NZ against these teams:

Australia 53.88
England 29.83
India 47.20
Pakistan 64.70
SA 42
SL 8 (had a terrible tour just after 2019 CWC final)
WI 82.60
Zim 136

Williamson's overall away average is only 41.44 (neutral 68.00) for an average of 45.28 away from NZ. Much of that is due to the first 4 years of his test career.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Bit harsh to call NZC idiots because they lose money from Tests. If Kane wants to play more Tests maybe he should fund it himself.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

He was absolutely dreadful abroad the first 3 years of his career (save the 100 on debut in India) but pretty good since then. Since the start of 2014 he's had just 26 tests outside NZ (away and neutral) and averaged 55.71 with 8 100s. In that time he's averaged the following outside NZ against these teams:

Australia 53.88
England 29.83
India 47.20
Pakistan 64.70
SA 42
SL 8 (had a terrible tour just after 2019 CWC final)
WI 82.60
Zim 136

Williamson's overall away average is only 41.44 (neutral 68.00) for an average of 45.28 away from NZ. Much of that is due to the first 4 years of his test career.

Well you can't just ignore 4 years of his career when he already plays less, especially when comparing him to other batsmen. When you exclude that many years, I'm assuming his sample size for some nations gets ridiculously small (im guessing South Africa is 1-2 matches). Its not his fault though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah "don't include x number of years where player wasn't as good" is not really a valid argument

 

[Athlai]

If you think Williamson today can't play overseas because of an "average" that includes him playing in formative years of cricket that Root/Kohli were protected from. Well thats just an interesting opinion.