Is Ricky Ponting a better batsman than Brian Lara?

[Avada Kedavra]

sure... coz he never scored runs against Murali after that...



Do you even watch cricket or reading statsguru is enough, Precamb????????

Why do you resort to personal attacks when you can't argue a point? It was only in those 3 tests that he really dominated Murali.

Ponting performed much better against Donald and Wasim and yes, I watched the matches. Lara performed against McGrath and Ponting performed against Ambrose and Walsh.

As for bringing Sachin into it, well hard to split Ponting and Sachin to be honest. But both are better than Lara.

 

[honestbharani]

No, but don't make it out as if it was like facing a different bowler. Lara didn't score many runs...Ponting did. End of story. Of the top bowling sides Lara faced, he only scored against Australia. Not many against Pakistan, S.Africa, couldn't face his own of course, and not even in India in India, if we count them. In fact, he averaged above 50 only against 3 countries: New Zealand, England and Australia.

But you gotta look at how many times he faced them as well? It is not like Ponting averaging 20 in India after 4 tours and 12 tests, is it? He faced up to Akram in 97 when he was at his best but in 99, he was well past his best. That doesn't need to be told by stats.. It was obvious watching him.. In fact, around that time, even Abdul Razzaq looked more threatening than Akram... The commentary, the bulletins, they were all full of it. And in 97, again Waqar was around, and was bowling with pace, even though not as much as he was around 93 but definitely well quicker than his pace in 99 and the 2000s...

 

[Ikki]

Did you actually read my post? I have very clearly acknowledged that Ponting has a fantastic record against Pakistan.. I was only clarifying that an average of 119 which was being compared to Lara's 48 looks out of this world on paper but it was based on just 1 match in Pakistan.

Anyway, Lara's overall average against Pakistan is 67, Ponting's is 62. I am not going to argue that a difference of 4 places Lara way ahead of Ponting, I am just going to repeat my previous point since you missed it earlier, both Lara and Ponting have a fantastic record against Pakistan.

Did you read your own post?

Thats because I have already demonstrated to you how stats can be deceiving. Ponting averages 119 in Pakistan. Investigate that a little bit more, you wont make that argument again.

You are trying to argue that we shouldn't look at the stats because Ponting averages 119 in Pakistan. And those stats somehow lie, even though Ponting is great against them everywhere? The point was you don't have a point. Ok, it was not 10 tests worth, but that's because Ponting also played them on neutral grounds.

The ORIGINAL point was about AWAY averages so whether Lara averages 100 at home doesn't hide the fact that was being pointed out: he averages <50 everywhere bar West Indies and Sri Lanka.

BTW Ponting's overall average against Pakistan is 82, Lara's is 53.

since this is not a "proper argument" and not a "rational reason" lara is the winner!

come on ikki. it doesnt matter what the logic behind each vote is. no one will know that for sure anyway. but you have to trust the poll and accept that the majority considers lara superior. it may not be okay with you but you cant speak like an indian politician and claim victory after getting trounced in the polls. lara is the clear winner here.

If the post to which I responded was going to be taken seriously as a "proper argument" then mine had more merit .

It does matter what logic is used behind each vote. I hope people can put away their fanboy hats and just admit who did what without having to embellish myths to save face or to reason out their bias.

 

[honestbharani]

Why do you resort to personal attacks when you can't argue a point? It was only in those 3 tests that he really dominated Murali.

Ponting performed much better against Donald and Wasim and yes, I watched the matches. Lara performed against McGrath and Ponting performed against Ambrose and Walsh.

As for bringing Sachin into it, well hard to split Ponting and Sachin to be honest. But both are better than Lara.

Didn't watch the series when Sri Lanka toured Windies around 2005 or so?


Ponting didn't exactly do against Ambrose and Walsh what Lara did against McWarne... That would involve almost winning a test off your own bat in the fourth inning on a disintegrating last day pitch against a McGrath at his very best...


And as for splitting Sachin and Ponting, hey, Ponting did to W and W what Sachin never did to them at their homes.. And Ponting averages 119 which I am sure is MILES better than what Sachin averages there..

 

[honestbharani]

Did you read your own post?



You are trying to argue that we shouldn't look at the stats because Ponting averages 119 in Pakistan. And those stats somehow lie, even though Ponting is great against them everywhere? The point was you don't have a point. Ok, it was not 10 tests worth, but that's because Ponting also played them on neutral grounds.

The ORIGINAL point was about AWAY averages so whether Lara averages 100 at home doesn't hide the fact that was being pointed out: he averages <50 everywhere bar West Indies and Sri Lanka.



If the post to which I responded was going to be taken seriously as a "proper argument" then mine had more merit .

It does matter what logic is used behind each vote. I hope people can put away their fanboy hats and just admit who did what without having to embellish myths to save face or to reason out their bias.

I hope you can understand the facts that many will go beyond stats over 3 and 5 test samples to decide who they think is a better batsman..

 

[Ikki]

But you gotta look at how many times he faced them as well? It is not like Ponting averaging 20 in India after 4 tours and 12 tests, is it? He faced up to Akram in 97 when he was at his best but in 99, he was well past his best. That doesn't need to be told by stats.. It was obvious watching him.. In fact, around that time, even Abdul Razzaq looked more threatening than Akram... The commentary, the bulletins, they were all full of it. And in 97, again Waqar was around, and was bowling with pace, even though not as much as he was around 93 but definitely well quicker than his pace in 99 and the 2000s...

Lara faced Pakistan 7 times, Ponting 4. It is clear who did better whether Wasim was at his absolute best or not. These are quality bowlers and Lara has failed against all of them bar the Aussies in the 90s. So this mythological argument about Lara being more reliable when the going is tougher is not supported by the facts. We know Lara failed against Pakistan, the worst you can say about Ponting is that he didn't play enough to fail and the best you can say is that he averaged 63 against them.

I hope you can understand the facts that many will go beyond stats over 3 and 5 test samples to decide who they think is a better batsman..

When people are making comments like: Lara is the great player because he did better against the great attacks... these can be verified directly by looking at his record. It's not supported by much logic.

Lara only averaged above 50 against 3 teams in the 90s, only one of them was notably good.

 

[honestbharani]

Lara faced Pakistan 7 times, Ponting 4. It is clear who did better whether Wasim was at his absolute best or not. These are quality bowlers and Lara has failed against all of them bar the Aussies in the 90s. So this mythological argument about Lara being more reliable when the going is tougher is not supported by the facts. We know Lara failed against Pakistan, the worst you can say about Ponting is that he didn't play enough to fail and the best you can say is that he averaged 63 against them.



When people are making comments like: Lara is the great player because he did better against the great attacks... these can be verified directly by looking at his record. It's not supported by much logic.

Lara only averaged above 50 against 3 teams in the 90s, only one of them was notably good.

Juz looked over the stats of the 90s and Lara was never dismissed by Wasim in the 93 series and his debut test which was right in 1990... And the attacks he faced against Pak when he played them were far, far better than when Ricky faced them... Not to mention the fact that with McWarne around, his team were rarely into as much pressure as the Windies might have faced, given the frail batting around them in 1997. And for a guy who can say so much for Warne's plights in India being due to off field issues, I suggest you check out articles on Lara and the Windies captaincy thingy just before the tour of Pakistan in 1997. Again, you would be stupid to think it didn't affect his performances there...



Also the fact that disregarding that one test in Peshawar where neither of the Ws played, he averages a very earthly less than 50 against Pak (he never faced Waqar in the 90s, a BIG point to be noted as in most experts' eyes him during the first half of the 90s and during that 97 season before his second set of injuries was amongst the GREATEST EVER bowlers, esp. on flat tracks with reverse swing).. And given that average is a result of 0,0,0 and 197 there is an even chance that the 197 was as much a fluke as the 0s were and conversely, the 0s were as likely to happen often as the 197 was...

 

[Ikki]

In matches involving any of the players: Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Pollock, Walsh, Ambrose, Warne and McGrath*

Ponting averages: 56.22
Lara averages 44.35

*of course they can't face their countrymen. These kinds of stats are never perfect but it does suggest enough IMO.

 

[Ikki]

Juz looked over the stats of the 90s and Lara was never dismissed by Wasim in the 93 series and his debut test which was right in 1990... And the attacks he faced against Pak when he played them were far, far better than when Ricky faced them... Not to mention the fact that with McWarne around, his team were rarely into as much pressure as the Windies might have faced, given the frail batting around them in 1997. And for a guy who can say so much for Warne's plights in India being due to off field issues, I suggest you check out articles on Lara and the Windies captaincy thingy just before the tour of Pakistan in 1997. Again, you would be stupid to think it didn't affect his performances there...

Dismissals by themselves are not indicative of a bowler getting the better of a batsman or the other way round. A Lara fan should know this best. Just look at his record against McGrath.

Lara averaged 30 against Pakistan in said period, that is pure fail for a batsman of his repute.

 

[honestbharani]

Dismissals by themselves are not indicative of a bowler getting the better of a batsman or the other way round. A Lara fan should know this best. Just look at his record against McGrath.

Lara averaged 30 against Pakistan in said period, that is pure fail for a batsman of his repute.

Sure is.. But your oh so great "performances" by Ponting against the Ws amount to nothing but 3 ducks and a 197 and you can take your pick on which one is a fluke.. the ducks or the 197... Another point to note is he NEVER faced Pakistan at their best. Pakistan attack in 1999 was rather bad... Comparing it to their attack in 1993 is stupid, as back then it was one of the best bowling attacks in the world and even in 1997, they were pretty good with a still quick Waqar hurling them down before his second set of injuries...

 

[Ikki]

Sure is.. But your oh so great "performances" by Ponting against the Ws amount to nothing but 3 ducks and a 197 and you can take your pick on which one is a fluke.. the ducks or the 197... Another point to note is he NEVER faced Pakistan at their best. Pakistan attack in 1999 was rather bad...

Ducks happen to everybody. 197 does not happen to everybody. Pretty simple pick.

It's rather simple, against the best bowlers in question; Ponting averages 40 against the Windies, 49 against Pakistan and 50 against S.Africa in the 90s. That's 10 matches worth. Go on, now say they were flat tracks

Comparing it to their attack in 1993 is stupid, as back then it was one of the best bowling attacks in the world and even in 1997, they were pretty good with a still quick Waqar hurling them down before his second set of injuries...

Lara barely scored runs against them whether it was in 93 or 97. In the 90s, he just didn't do it. End of story.

 

[honestbharani]

Ducks happen to everybody. 197 does not happen to everybody. Pretty simple pick.

It's rather simple, against the best bowlers in question; Ponting averages 40 against the Windies, 49 against Pakistan and 50 against S.Africa in the 90s. That's 10 matches worth. Go on, now say they were flat tracks



Lara barely scored runs against them whether it was in 93 or 97. In the 90s, he just didn't do it. End of story.

Scoring a 40 and a 96 and a 51 is scoring runs in my book.. The 1990 game is obviously a one off.. He debuted and didn't even play for a couple of years after that... And the 197 shows he can score a big one once in a while.. 3 ducks show he failed every other time against a much lesser attack than what Lara faced... If 197 proves he is a great against said bowlers, then what about Matthew Sinclair who has had similarish runs? And I can argue Vinod Kambli is a great of the game coz he averages 53 and has had two double centuries which are rare, conveniently disregarding his failures?


And the other main point here is, he never faced them in Pak..

 

[Ikki]

Scoring a 40 and a 96 and a 51 is scoring runs in my book.. The 1990 game is obviously a one off.. He debuted and didn't even play for a couple of years after that... And the 197 shows he can score a big one once in a while.. 3 ducks show he failed every other time against a much lesser attack than what Lara faced... If 197 proves he is a great against said bowlers, then what about Matthew Sinclair who has had similarish runs? And I can argue Vinod Kambli is a great of the game coz he averages 53 and has had two double centuries which are rare, conveniently disregarding his failures?
And the other main point here is, he never faced them in Pak..

If Ponting scored ducks and then scored 197 every time I'd say he'd be doing his team a great favour. Much better than half centuries every once in a while. But I have more faith he'd score more than 0 in 3 innings out of 4. Don't you? So IMO his average has even more potential.

When Matthew Sinclair and Vinod Kambli have such a great record across the board, then I'd accept them as Ponting's equal within the confines of this discussion. If they average 56 against those bowlers, even if it is 3 test matches against each top country, then they've proved enough for me.

Let me put it this way: if Ponting had only scored runs in 1 series against only 1 of these teams, I'd be on your side. The very fact that he did well, even as a newb (not established batsman), across all 3 I think says more than enough.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Didn't watch the series when Sri Lanka toured Windies around 2005 or so?


Ponting didn't exactly do against Ambrose and Walsh what Lara did against McWarne... That would involve almost winning a test off your own bat in the fourth inning on a disintegrating last day pitch against a McGrath at his very best...


And as for splitting Sachin and Ponting, hey, Ponting did to W and W what Sachin never did to them at their homes.. And Ponting averages 119 which I am sure is MILES better than what Sachin averages there..

Put it this way - If I had to choose between Lara, Ponting and Sachin to pick my best side, I would pick Ponting.

If I wanted one of the three to bat for my life, I would choose Sachin.

If I wanted to just watch someone bat, I would pick Lara.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

So what it comes down to is this : Ponting performed against Ambrose, Walsh, Wasim and Donald. Lara performed against McGrath. Both watching them bat against the greatest fast bowlers and stats confirm that Ponting is a superior player of pace bowling. Lara was the better player of spin bowling, I am not denying that. But Ponting's consistency, especially away from home, is something that's worth noting.

 

[honestbharani]

Put it this way - If I had to choose between Lara, Ponting and Sachin to pick my best side, I would pick Ponting.

If I wanted one of the three to bat for my life, I would choose Sachin.

If I wanted to just watch someone bat, I would pick Lara.

I agree with that and honestly, I do think it is all pretty close between the three for the matter to boil down to personal opinion.


But the stats which seem to split them clearly themselves are out of a pretty minor sample that it is difficult to make any concrete statements on who is better among the 3.


As I said, over the time of my watching, against a quality attack, I rate them this way. (some of it is based on stats, some on my watching, some on peer rating..)


Sachin is the least likely to fail... He could score you at least 30 or so even in the most difficult conditions.


Ponting is the most likely to consistently dominate... He will definitely score big knocks if he can get over the initial period but the fact that, due to his career starting in the mid to late 90s and him being an Australian, he has never really been tested as much as the other two against quality bowling... It is not his fault and he is as likely to have fared great as he is to have failed against them but it is just difficult to rate him with nothing to go by... Plus, I feel he is even more vulnerable than Lara at the beginning of his innings (that is amazing, coz I felt Lara was pretty vulnerable early on).. Again, juz my opinion and may well be contrary to facts in others' eyes but that is what I have felt watching him over the years...


Lara.. he may well get out for 0 while the other two can at least get 20 or 30 but I don't think my team will lose by such close margins and I would rather prefer a guy who will take the game away when set and in this regard, Lara is peerless.. He has managed double centuries with no support against the best bowlers of the generation against huge pressure (mainly due to how dismal his own side was) so I pick him first.. Sachin second and Punter 3rd..


As I said, I agree that there is very very little seperating them and it juz comes down to preference, which would be a good reason why most ex players and commentators around the world are just as split in opinions about the 3...

 

[honestbharani]

So what it comes down to is this : Ponting performed against Ambrose, Walsh, Wasim and Donald. Lara performed against McGrath. Both watching them bat against the greatest fast bowlers and stats confirm that Ponting is a superior player of pace bowling. Lara was the better player of spin bowling, I am not denying that. But Ponting's consistency, especially away from home, is something that's worth noting.

Again, I would love to see the exact numbers against Ambrose and Walsh for Ponting before jumping to any decisions...


Punter averages 39 at a SR of 37 against Windies in the 90s.. Hardly anything to shout off the top of the roof about.. The same thing for Lara (against McWarne in the 90s) is 52 @ 63 over 11 tests...

 

[Ikki]

Ponting averages 40 in matches with Ambrose and Walsh in the 90s. He scored 88 against them the first time he faced them.

 

[honestbharani]

Ponting averages 40 in matches with Ambrose and Walsh in the 90s. He scored 88 against them the first time he faced them.

yeah and a 100 at Barbados on the first day.. Nothing much of note else where.. I think he averages 39 point something.. so I agree it is 40. It is not still not all that impressive is it?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Again, I would love to see the exact numbers against Ambrose and Walsh for Ponting before jumping to any decisions...


Punter averages 39 at a SR of 37 against Windies in the 90s.. Hardly anything to shout off the top of the roof about.. The same thing for Lara (against McWarne in the 90s) is 52 @ 63 over 11 tests...

Averages 40 against Walsh and Amby.