Is Ricky Ponting a better batsman than Brian Lara?

[Sir Alex]

So hard to choose between, but my vote goes to Ponting because I like him a lot. It is not that I dislike Lara but Ponting has played more number of matchwinning knocks. Ponting is also the more consistent among the two and both players have a bad record in India so it is futile to compare them in that aspect.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I was responding to a particular figure presented, which was an average of 119 in Pakistan as compared to 40 something of Lara's in Pakistan. I was putting that in perspective for those who might be misled by incomplete information.
Yes Ponting played really well in the 02 series in Sri Lanka/Sharjah an attack comprising of Waqar, Shoaib, Sami, Saqlain whereas Lara was as good if not better (while some might argue better) in 06, against an attack comprising of Umar Gul, Shahid Nazir, Danish Kaneria and Razzaq. Considering how well Gul bowled in that series, and the fading Waqar of 02, and semi fit but express Shoaib ( he lasted 1 and half match), I dont think there was much between the two attacks.

You keep going on an on about Ponting's average in Pakistan. Fine let's leave Pakistan out for the sake of the argument. Ponting still averages 50+ in most other countries outside home. Lara only in Sri Lanka.

And I asked you why Lara didn't ever do to Donald what Ponting did in 1997.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

The mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Unfortunately you have failed that test by resorting to these cheap personal attacks and this is where the discussion ends. A debate/discussion is not meant to change people's opinions, people are meant to exchange views, respect each other and be enlightened in the process. .

Sorry I didn't mean that in an offensive way. What I wanted to say was that people should back up their points better instead of saying "his batting transcends stats" etc. But you're implying that I'm uneducated, that's a personal attack

 

[DingDong]

Considering the majority voted "anyday" without a rational reason or a proper argument made I'd say Ponting is the real winner.

lol stop living in denial ok.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I'd say Lara takes it 19-16. There isn't that huge a gap between the two as cricketers for the "Lara anyday" section to be taken seriously.

 

[honestbharani]

Facts ? I've haven't left out facts. Are you perturbed because the only place Lara manages a 50+ average away from home is Sri Lanka (that too because of 1 very good series) ?

Are you too perturbed by the fact that batting in the wickets in Windies is harder than some of the other "home" pitches????

 

[honestbharani]

Whenever he played him. Ponting averages 46 in matches against Donald. He scored a century in his first inning against Donald in 97.

Yeah.. I watched that series and while Donald was at his best, it was indeed a flat track... And for Lara, that 98 series is hardly the one to take as a sample for his batting... You can look up at any number of comments then about how off the field stuff was affecting the whole team and how things were then.. It is not exactly rocket science to assume that it would have been a factor in the way Lara played and even the whole team played at that time...

They've both played roughly the same amount of innings. Why does no. of games matter here?

Coz the sample size is too small...

Apparently Lara also had a pet Unicorn.

Great.. so that makes him even better.

Yeah, he did.

How many tours of Pakistan did Australia have back then? How many times did Pakistan tour over there? How many times did Lara face up to Wasim and Waqar in the mid 90s.. And of course, lets conveniently forget the main fact that facing the Ws in 97 or 99 is hardly the same as facing them in 93, when they were so so much better than they were in the late 90s being boged down by injuries and stuff...



Ikki... I don't want to keep debating on a number of posts where I posted emotionally rather than logically. As I said, I have had enough of denigration of the greats here. It is one thing to tell someone is better but it is another thing to keep writing off others' achievements... For me, I think Ponting does deserve to be in the company of Lara and Sachin as the modern all timers but I will always take Lara slightly ahead of Sachin slightly ahead of Ponting.

 

[honestbharani]

Finding it tough to argue against 41 other forummers or the rest of the cricket world where most of the greats including his team mates rate Lara better?



Or are we supposed to appreciate that you know stuff they don't... like stats, for instance?

 

[honestbharani]

I think Lara played just 3 test matches against Wasim and Waqar in 97. When Pakistan toured WI in 2000, Lara was on a personal break from cricket, in 2002 when WI played Pakistan in Sharjah, and in 2003, Wasim and Waqar retired. Wasim in 99 was way past his prime, and was having a torrid time as a captain, as a bowler. Whereas Wasim in 97, although not as fast, was having a fantastic time as a captain and a bowler.
Point is, 3 test matches is just not enough to judge players of this calibre, not Lara, not Ponting. The thing going in Lara's favour is his peak coincided with the peaks of other fast bowling greats like Donald, McGrath, Pollock etc and spinners like Warne and Murali.
Ponting's peak from 2003 had no Wasim-Waqar, Ambrose-Walsh, Donald, and he wasnt as good against Murali as Lara was, I dont think anyone can dispute that. The best fast bowlers during Ponting's peak were Shoaib Akhtar, Steve Harmisson, Dale Steyn, Chaminda Vaas.
Now if Ponting was at his peak in the 1990s, how would he have fared against the bowlers mentioned above? Honestly we dont know. But based on the evidence available and the quality of the fast bowlers both Ponting and Lara peaked against, it is not fair to conclude that Ponting was a better player of fast bowling than Lara.





Maybe the 400 he got was abuse of power, maybe he did that because the series was already lost, we dont know. But thats just one example. His performances against a pretty strong South African side at home in 2003 was phenomena to say the least, he did not manage to win a test match, but the few that were draws were not abuse of power, but his batting that enabled WI to draw those matches.

There were 7 and a half sessions left and they managed to bowl out England for 240 odd in the first dig and the fact that Lara himself dropped a sitter was the biggest reason that game was a draw..


I would think he gave himself and his side every opportunity to win the test.

 

[honestbharani]

No it's Lara who is a home track bully.

The same home tracks which during almost the whole of the 90s produced a variety of different wickets ranging from turners in QPO, seamers in Barbados, hard bouncy ones in Jamaica????



It is in the 2000s that the tracks there flattened out so much... Through most of the 90s, Windies were the "hardest" home pitches for anyone...

 

[honestbharani]

So Ponting, not even at his peak, scores a century against an Alan Donald on a rampage in 1997. Why hasn't Lara done that? Let's deal with what has happened rather than imagining what would have happened or what could have happened.

Who performed better against Wasim Akram? Ponting
Who performed better against Donald? Ponting

Lara never faced Ambrose and Walsh either so I don't see how you can hold that against Ponting. If Lara has been better against Murali, that's just one bowler. Ponting did quite well against Saqlain Mustaq and Kumble. I am not arguing that Ponting is a better player of spin. Lara was a better player of spin although not by as much as some here would like us to believe. It is also true that Ponting is a superior player of fast bowling. Both watching them bat and stats confirm this.

I dunno whcih games you were watching but I would think being able to nick a number of double centuries and 150+ scores against McGrath, WArne and Gillespie would show ability against fast bowling.


And as for Donald, again the 98 series is hardly enough of a sample size given the amazing divisions rankling the Windies side during that series.. It is like looking at the WC and telling Sachin was an abject failure against all but Namibia... He was like that coz of issues with Greg Chappell.


Of course, AKD, going by all these stats, it is pretty clear that Ponting is easily better than Sachin as well, right?????

 

[honestbharani]

And yet 3 tests in Sri Lanka are enough to prove that Lara has the "God given ability to play spin".

Forgetting every other game of his against all the other spinners???????


Including the great Warne, and to a lesser extent decimation of blokes like Kaneria...

 

[honestbharani]

Let's leave out the 2001 series against Sri Lanka too, shall we ? After all, it's stupid to take one series as a sample size.

sure... coz he never scored runs against Murali after that...



Do you even watch cricket or reading statsguru is enough, Precamb????????

 

[honestbharani]

All the people here saying "Lara way ahead" are seriously delusional. All this about transcending stats is good to hear, but unfortunately it's performances and runs that count. Ponting scores over Lara in that aspect.


Courtney Walsh was a great batsman btw. I rate him higher than Lara. Don't give me his stats now. His batting transcends stats

No, its performanes and runs against the best that count.. Unfortunately, Ponting could not play his own attack so we will never know. But Lara did and fared better than just about anyone, including our dear SAchin... (Try his averages and 100+ scores VS McWarne when you have time or anything that reflects lesser on the S man banned in ur statsguru, Precamb? )

 

[honestbharani]

People seem to miss out the point that when it was difficult and against the best (i.e. the best attacks in the 90s) Ponting actually did do better than Lara.

Are you saying it was more difficult to face Akram in 99 than in 97?

 

[Ikki]

Yeah.. I watched that series and while Donald was at his best, it was indeed a flat track... And for Lara, that 98 series is hardly the one to take as a sample for his batting... You can look up at any number of comments then about how off the field stuff was affecting the whole team and how things were then.. It is not exactly rocket science to assume that it would have been a factor in the way Lara played and even the whole team played at that time...

Puh-lease...

Every time someone scores runs against anyone notable on this forum the track is ****ing flat. What a coincidence.

Coz the sample size is too small...

Not really. Especially when you look at how he did against them all across the board. The top bowlers were all comparable for the decade. They all played the same attacks about the same amount of times, and it just so happened that Ponting was better overall. What a coincidence, since he is the best player of pace out of the 3.

Great.. so that makes him even better.

I know, I can't wait for Santa either.

How many tours of Pakistan did Australia have back then? How many times did Pakistan tour over there? How many times did Lara face up to Wasim and Waqar in the mid 90s.. And of course, lets conveniently forget the main fact that facing the Ws in 97 or 99 is hardly the same as facing them in 93, when they were so so much better than they were in the late 90s being boged down by injuries and stuff...

Ikki... I don't want to keep debating on a number of posts where I posted emotionally rather than logically. As I said, I have had enough of denigration of the greats here. It is one thing to tell someone is better but it is another thing to keep writing off others' achievements... For me, I think Ponting does deserve to be in the company of Lara and Sachin as the modern all timers but I will always take Lara slightly ahead of Sachin slightly ahead of Ponting.

Same amount as what Tendulkar and Lara had.

You are welcome to your opinion and I am glad you're at least of the sane crowd to acknowledge how little there is in it. But the line about greatness is out of place with the rest of your comments.

And if people want to talk about playing well when at it's most difficult/against the best...then it's Steve Waugh comfortably. He makes these 3 look like flat-track bullies. But of course, it's only about the best when Lara is shown up to be so inconsistent.

 

[honestbharani]

Lara and Tendulkar are simply overrated by some, they are no better than most of the top batsmen from all eras. I have watched both over their respective careers and although they are very good they are not extrordinary in any way.

That would be a fair point, tbh... But they have been head and shoulders above the rest bar Ponting. With Ponting, it is always hard for me to judge coz he seems to fail dismaly at times but also does amazing stuff with the bat. The problem is his peak came in the 2000s when the world bowling was pretty low in standard... I regard him an all timer just as much as Lara and Sachin but I really find it hard to be objective on where to place him because unlike Lara and Sachin, his peak came when the bowling standards were low... As most seem to agree here, it comes down to opinion and I feel Lara nudges ahead of Sachin who nudges ahead of Ponting....

 

[honestbharani]

Puh-lease...

Every time someone scores runs against anyone notable on this forum the track is ****ing flat. What a coincidence.



Not really. Especially when you look at how he did against them all across the board. They all played the same attacks about the same amount of times, and it just so happened that Ponting was better overall. What a coincidence, since he is the best player of pace out of the 3.



I know, I can't wait for Santa either.



Same amount as what Tendulkar and Lara had.

You are welcome to your opinion and I am glad you're at least of the sane crowd to acknowledge how little there is in it. But the line about greatness is out of place with the rest of your comments.

And if people want to talk about playing well when at it's most difficult/against the best...then it's Steve Waugh comfortably. He makes these 3 look like flat-track bullies. But of course, it's only about the best when Lara is shown up to be so inconsistent.

I did say it was an emotional comment, my friend..

 

[honestbharani]

you seem to be the troll here, make your point but why make it personal.

Actually.. I agree with LT.. I think there is more than enough suggestion that the guy is a second or 983247923th account of a bloke who used to be Precamb here...

 

[Ikki]

Are you saying it was more difficult to face Akram in 99 than in 97?

No, but don't make it out as if it was like facing a different bowler. Lara didn't score many runs...Ponting did. End of story. Of the top bowling sides Lara faced, he only scored against Australia. Not many against Pakistan, S.Africa, couldn't face his own of course, and not even in India in India, if we count them. In fact, he averaged above 50 only against 3 countries: New Zealand, England and Australia.