Is Keith Miller an ATG test bowler?

[PlayerComparisons]

.

 

[Johan]

Yes and No.

He is an ATG quality bowler, as evidenced by him ending with identical numbers to his partner in crime, Ray Lindwall who is a bonafide ATG but he also didn't bowl the same amount as other ATG pacemen, he barely bowled against India, New Zealand, Pakistan or Tailenders for example. So, Qualitatively Yes but Quantitatively No.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes and No.

He is an ATG quality bowler, as evidenced by him ending with identical numbers to his partner in crime, Ray Lindwall who is a bonafide ATG but he also didn't bowl the same amount as other ATG pacemen, he barely bowled against India, New Zealand, Pakistan or Tailenders for example. So, Qualitatively Yes but Quantitatively No.

He bowled 31 overs a test.

 

[Coronis]

He bowled 31 overs a test.

Some reference for great pace bowlers, plus Botham and Kapil as AR reference

first listed is overs per match, then overs per innings

Lillee 43.97/23.32
Davidson 43.89/23.55
Hadlee 42.48/24.35
Roberts 39.49/20.62
McGrath 39.31/20.06
Walsh 37.90/20.67
Garner 37.84/19.77
Trueman 37.76/19.92
Ambrose 37.59/20.58
Pollock 37.58/20.09
Lindwall 37.30/20.13
Imran 36.58/22.84
Wasim 36.26/20.84
Marshall 36.18/19.41
Donald 35.92/20.05
Botham 35.65/21.64
Anderson 35.49/19.07
Kapil 35.29/20.37
Holding 35.22/18.70
Cummins 33.62/17.97
Steyn 33.35/18.14
Bumrah 32.22/16.84
Miller 31.70/18.35
Waqar 31.08/17.56
Rabada 30.75/16.79

Conclusion: modern pace bowlers are coddled babies

 

[Thala_0710]

Conclusion: modern pace bowlers are coddled babies

Not really no. The average length of test matches has been quite less in the past few years, the gaps between tests in a series have reduced significantly too. Also the concept of rest days in between tests no longer exists. All of that combined probably explains a lot of that.

 

[Thala_0710]

Average no of overs delivered in international cricket by the top 10 pacers: (by decade)
80s: 2867.7
90s: 3189.17
00s: 3787.71
10s: 3202.21
Another factor being just more international cricket being played. (Less FC overs being bowled too a result probably, but the point stands that don't think overall it's too big of a change)

 

[Thala_0710]

Average no of overs delivered in international cricket by the top 10 pacers: (by decade)
80s: 2867.7
90s: 3189.17
00s: 3787.71
10s: 3202.21
Another factor being just more international cricket being played. (Less FC overs being bowled too a result probably, but the point stands that don't think overall it's too big of a change)

Same stat for just test cricket:
80s: 2043.66
90s: 2111.69
00s: 2537.11
10s: 2475.06

 

[Coronis]

Not really no. The average length of test matches has been quite less in the past few years, the gaps between tests in a series have reduced significantly too. Also the concept of rest days in between tests no longer exists. All of that combined probably explains a lot of that.

Well yes, because teams don’t play 2-3 tour matches between tests now.

 

[Thala_0710]

Well yes, because teams don’t play 2-3 tour matches between tests now.

Those 4-5 tour matches in a series had much less workload compared to tests and the best pacers got rested in many cases either way

 

[Thala_0710]

And white ball cricket is much less of a workload, but the sheer increase in number of international matches, the whole prep for that to stay fit across formats also needs to be taken into account. Simply saying they bowl less overs per test is too narrow a way to look at it when there are multiple other factors.

 

[Johan]

Modern batsman score way faster and get out way faster too

 

[Thala_0710]

Modern batsman score way faster and get out way faster too

Yeah which is basically the point that tests end sooner on avg for the past few years. Though this has been caused by the more tough pitches but the point still stands

 

[Coronis]

Those 4-5 tour matches in a series had much less workload compared to tests and the best pacers got rested in many cases either way

Uh yeah no not really.

Bumrah’s BGT 2024/25 151 overs (Nov 22-Jan 03) before breaking down.

Marshall’s Frank Worrell Trophy 1984/85 215 overs (Nov 9-Dec 30) + 52 overs in tour matches + 145 overs in ODI matches

Lets not forget also, that the past what 15 years or so many, many players will skip ODIs outside of WCs. The workloads are not comparable at all.

Bumrah’s BGT 2024/25 151 overs (Nov 22-Jan 03) before breaking down.

Marshall’s Frank Worrell Trophy 1984/85 215 overs (Nov 9-Dec 30) + 52 overs in tour matches + 145 overs in ODI matches

Lets not forget also, that the past what 15 years or so many, many players will skip ODIs outside of WCs. The workloads are not comparable at all.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah which is basically the point that tests end sooner on avg for the past few years. Though this has been caused by the more tough pitches but the point still stands

And yet bowlers are still being rested more often and generally injured at similar rates

 

[Thala_0710]

Uh yeah no not really.

Bumrah’s BGT 2024/25 151 overs (Nov 22-Jan 03) before breaking down.

Marshall’s Frank Worrell Trophy 1984/85 215 overs (Nov 9-Dec 30) + 52 overs in tour matches + 145 overs in ODI matches

Lets not forget also, that the past what 15 years or so many, many players will skip ODIs outside of WCs. The workloads are not comparable at all.

Bumrah’s BGT 2024/25 151 overs (Nov 22-Jan 03) before breaking down.

Marshall’s Frank Worrell Trophy 1984/85 215 overs (Nov 9-Dec 30) + 52 overs in tour matches + 145 overs in ODI matches

Lets not forget also, that the past what 15 years or so many, many players will skip ODIs outside of WCs. The workloads are not comparable at all.

You literally took 1 particular example. I posted avg workloads throughout decades which clearly show an increasing trend, primarily due to more international cricket being played these days which needs to be factored in.
Also just mentioning Bumrah in each and every possible conversation isn't a good look

 

[Coronis]

You literally took 1 particular example. I posted avg workloads throughout decades which clearly show an increasing trend, primarily due to more international cricket being played these days which needs to be factored in.
Also just mentioning Bumrah in each and every possible conversation isn't a good look

And you’re completely ignoring first class cricket and List A matches, because modern players don’t play them as much, despite them being considerably more important and significant in the past and being a far bigger workload than what players do today. For example, across all formats, Bumrah has bowled about 25000 balls in his career. A player like Marshall bowled 25000 balls from 1980-83.

 

[shortpitched713]

 

[ataraxia]

It's really silly to argue that modern test bowlers don't have a smaller bowling workload than bowlers of the past – at least, those who played county. Trueman and Statham bowled 100,000 balls in FC cricket lol.

If it was true that they have a higher workload than bowlers who played 30 FC matches a season, it would also be true to say that sports science has failed.

 

[shortpitched713]

Yeah, more consistently fast deliveries, higher forces on the body. I'd expect smaller workloads for more recent fast bowlers compared to in the past. Same as in baseball.

Thing is it's really easy to determine what the full season workloads are for pitchers in baseball, even historically. But with all the different formats and incomplete records, it's hard to have a really clear picture of exactly how much bowling legends of past were doing compared to now, who qualifies as outliers, etc.

Hence the J Jonah Jameson meme.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Some reference for great pace bowlers, plus Botham and Kapil as AR reference

first listed is overs per match, then overs per innings

Lillee 43.97/23.32
Davidson 43.89/23.55
Hadlee 42.48/24.35
Roberts 39.49/20.62
McGrath 39.31/20.06
Walsh 37.90/20.67
Garner 37.84/19.77
Trueman 37.76/19.92
Ambrose 37.59/20.58
Pollock 37.58/20.09
Lindwall 37.30/20.13
Imran 36.58/22.84
Wasim 36.26/20.84
Marshall 36.18/19.41
Donald 35.92/20.05
Botham 35.65/21.64
Anderson 35.49/19.07
Kapil 35.29/20.37
Holding 35.22/18.70
Cummins 33.62/17.97
Steyn 33.35/18.14
Bumrah 32.22/16.84
Miller 31.70/18.35
Waqar 31.08/17.56
Rabada 30.75/16.79

Conclusion: modern pace bowlers are coddled babies

Dwayne Bravo once bowled a 30+ over spell? I think he did