honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
No we are not.
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Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?
- Thread starter ma1978
- Start date
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
I believe you missed a only there next to the not.you're not stubborn just a bit dense
subshakerz
International Coach
I view ATG as a very select group.
None of them except those two maybe. I consider there to be around 10 to 12 ATG pacers, the rest are regular greats. So for spinners we are talking 4 to 6 at best who make that grade.
On CW, anybody who is popular gets branded an ATG.
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OverratedSanity
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What olive branch ffs? I have no quarrel with you, I have a quarrel with your piss poor arguments. Funny thing is, I dont event think Ashwin is an ATG as a bowler (closer as a cricketer, though). And also, I admit I'm very stubborn about one specific thing which is praising Ashwin for his 2020 Australia tour because I genuinely believe it was as good a series as you can get from a spinner in those conditions and yet he doesnt get due credit for it because of arbitrary parameters like 5fers.
subshakerz
International Coach
The fifer thing is a career criticism overall for SENA performance, like a batsman missing a ton in those conditions.
I already gave him credit for the 2021 tour. Stop bleating about something we agree on.
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Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
You should never muck about with those who cannot bleat.
subshakerz
International Coach
My reasoning is pretty clear. Main issue is people don't like the criteria by which I select cricketers. A lot of group think unfortunately on CW.you're not stubborn just a bit dense
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
loterry1994
International Debutant
I’d say his good not great. Spinning conditions in India just crazy. Same reason I don’t put Jimmy Anderson up amongst the great fast bowlers way too favourable for their home conditions
_00_deathscar
International Regular
While this gets trotted about a lot, Ashwin has won more games for India than Jimmy Anderson has for England, despite favourable conditions for both. Same goes for Jadeja too.
Assuming a 50% home game rate, if you as a spin duo are winning like 80-90% of your games (which at some point they were), then that’s an insane amount of games won. Up there, or even more, than the Windies and Australia great teams.
That’s why they’re rated that highly - they’re absolute cheat codes at home.
If either/both were also doing that abroad, nevermind Marshall and co, these two would be the greatest bowlers in the history of the sport. They don’t do that abroad, that’s why they’re not and are merely lowest level ATG/high level ATVG as bowlers (but certainly ATG cricketers), depending on how you want to classify it.
For me an ATG means you are a viable candidate for selection into an alltime test XI - at least a 2nd XI. It is a very high bar. Many era greats, or country greats. A select few are true ATGs.
Ashwin is not an ATG. A country great - yes.
With my bar, the following are ATGs [by country - please add as required].
West Indies:
Headley
Sobers
Lara
Viv
Marshall
Ambrose
Holding
Walcott
Pakistan:
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
India:
Tendulkar
Gavaskar
NZ:
Hadlee
England:
Hobbs
Hammond
Hutton
(In my opinion tbh they are not viable but the weight of historical opinion wins out)
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Sri Lanka:
Murali
Sangakarra
Other countries to follow.
West Indies:
Headley
Sobers
Lara
Viv
Marshall
Ambrose
Holding
Walcott
Pakistan:
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
India:
Tendulkar
Gavaskar
NZ:
Hadlee
England:
Hobbs
Hammond
Hutton
(In my opinion tbh they are not viable but the weight of historical opinion wins out)
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Sri Lanka:
Murali
Sangakarra
Other countries to follow.
ataraxia
International Coach
Why?
I just think the game has moved on far too much and the players of that long ago era would struggle with the professional era. They were great in their time and I respect that.
Can you seriously imagine Hobbs facing Ambrose?
ataraxia
International Coach
Players are weighted by their time on CW, not by how actually skilled they are. Walcott would be at best a low 40s averaging bat today, but we don't care.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
Yes. Its a glorious contest twixt bat and ball.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
He is definitely an ATG.
Warne is famous for making leg spin popular, while Ashwin is famous for making the Mankad popular.
Warne is famous for making leg spin popular, while Ashwin is famous for making the Mankad popular.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
By your very own measure, Holding isn’t an ATG if we’re saying it’s a player that would be in serious contention for a second ATG XI
Patience and Accuracy+Gut
State Regular
Can you seriously imagine Steve Smith or any of modern players facing O’Reilly or Verity in Sticky Wicket with bats of 30s?