Haynes vs Langer

[reyrey]

Haynes' home record takes some toppling. Averaged 40+ in 11 out of 13 series on Caribbean shores. One of the two exceptions was against Pakistan in 1988, he responded by dominating peak Wasim and Waqar in 1993. The other instance was the final series of his career where he still averaged a respectable 36. Ploughed into Australia in 1984 and was prolific v an improved Aussie attack in 1991.

It can be easy to assume players who were significantly better at home than away were downhill skier types, but opening on some of the West Indian tracks was far from plain sailing even when adjusting to other teams not having as strong a set of HTD attacks.

Haynes also proved he wasn't just an FTB overseas. He was visually and practically a sturdy opener v lateral movement; averaged 46 in a very low-scoring long series in England (1991) and 57 on a New Zealand tour where WI struggled v peak Hadlee and co.

I don't dispute Haynes was a great player at home, but his home average of 56 is inflated by Not Outs. Specifically 4th innings not outs when WIndies are chasing low totals for wins.

Haynes batted 19 times in the 4th innings at home with 13 of his 15 not outs, and averaged 98.

Greenidge batted 18 times in the 4th innings at home, and averaged 65.

Who do you think scored more 4th innings runs at home though (hint, it's not the guy averaging 98)

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Langer by a margin. Haynes was a Warner prototype

This

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Definitive proof that not outs don't inflate batting averages

Take any practical case and you will know. In case of Bevan you would have to assume 55 more runs every time he remained not out. Out of all the innings Bevan was dismissed he averaged 32. And out of all the innings he remained not out his runs/ innings is 42. So you are saying he would have...

www.cricketweb.net

 

[sayon basak]

Definitive proof that not outs don't inflate batting averages

Take any practical case and you will know. In case of Bevan you would have to assume 55 more runs every time he remained not out. Out of all the innings Bevan was dismissed he averaged 32. And out of all the innings he remained not out his runs/ innings is 42. So you are saying he would have...

www.cricketweb.net

Doesn't mean that they cannot be misleading.

 

[Bolo.]

I don't dispute Haynes was a great player at home, but his home average of 56 is inflated by Not Outs. Specifically 4th innings not outs when WIndies are chasing low totals for wins.

Haynes batted 19 times in the 4th innings at home with 13 of his 15 not outs, and averaged 98.

Greenidge batted 18 times in the 4th innings at home, and averaged 65.

Who do you think scored more 4th innings runs at home though (hint, it's not the guy averaging 98)

Scoring runs with a NO in a successful chase is the opposite of inflating average. It's doing your job perfectly. And it takes away opportunities to actually inflate average. When you are set and have successfully navigated the new ball, that is when average inflation would happen, not when you are denied opportunities to keep scoring by the innings ending.

 

[Johan]

Scoring runs with a NO in a successful chase is the opposite of inflating average. It's doing your job perfectly. And it takes away opportunities to actually inflate average. When you are set and have successfully navigated the new ball, that is when average inflation would happen, not when you are denied opportunities to keep scoring by the innings ending.

Yeah but say you're chasing 80 and then you get in on a good wicket and make 45* and just a free boost to average?

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but say you're chasing 80 and then you get in on a good wicket and make 45* and just a free boost to average?

It's a reward for staying unbeaten in a chase.

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah but say you're chasing 80 and then you get in on a good wicket and make 45* and just a free boost to average?

If you get in on a good wicket and are on 45* you expect to score far more runs than your average before getting dismissed on top of the 45. The innings ending hurts your average relative to playing until dismissal.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah but say you're chasing 80 and then you get in on a good wicket and make 45* and just a free boost to average?

This actually illustrates the point @ankitj is making in that thread perfectly. Kudos

 

[Thala_0710]

This would be a low level analysis, but just calculating a new average, where only 4th innings not outs are counted in the not out stats (so a midway between avg and rpi) could be interesting.

 

[BazBall21]

I don't dispute Haynes was a great player at home, but his home average of 56 is inflated by Not Outs. Specifically 4th innings not outs when WIndies are chasing low totals for wins.

Haynes batted 19 times in the 4th innings at home with 13 of his 15 not outs, and averaged 98.

Greenidge batted 18 times in the 4th innings at home, and averaged 65.

Who do you think scored more 4th innings runs at home though (hint, it's not the guy averaging 98)

It is, but I still think he has the best home record of the WI batsmen of that era even if by a small margin.

 

[Coronis]

This would be a low level analysis, but just calculating a new average, where only 4th innings not outs are counted in the not out stats (so a midway between avg and rpi) could be interesting.

I mean obviously this discounts declared innings too. Or an innings where someone carried their bat on a tricky pitch. Lemme see though I’ll do it for you. I’ll do it for CWs top 21.

Bradman 93.25
Pollock 57.85
Hobbs 56.35
Sutcliffe 56.23
Sangakkara 54.87
Headley 54.75
Hutton 54.46
Barrington 54.45
Hammond 53.70
Lara 52.66
Sobers 52.16
Smith 51.36
Tendulkar 50.87
Chappell 50.79
Kallis 50.15
Dravid 49.58
Gavaskar 49.38
Ponting 49.00
Richards 48.25
Border 43.82
Waugh 43.19

Both Hobbs (6) and Lara (5) had all bar one of their not outs in the 4th innings. Headley had 0 not outs in the 4th innings. Though he himself is probably a perfect example of a guy who wasn’t leaving runs on the table.

Hobbs was 19* in a rain affected match (17 overs total bowled) and Lara’s was of course his 400*.

 

[Thala_0710]

I mean obviously this discounts declared innings too. Or an innings where someone carried their bat on a tricky pitch. Lemme see though I’ll do it for you. I’ll do it for CWs top 21.

Bradman 93.25
Pollock 57.85
Hobbs 56.35
Sutcliffe 56.23
Sangakkara 54.87
Headley 54.75
Hutton 54.46
Barrington 54.45
Hammond 53.70
Lara 52.66
Sobers 52.16
Smith 51.36
Tendulkar 50.87
Chappell 50.79
Kallis 50.15
Dravid 49.58
Gavaskar 49.38
Ponting 49.00
Richards 48.25
Border 43.82
Waugh 43.19

Both Hobbs (6) and Lara (5) had all bar one of their not outs in the 4th innings. Headley had 0 not outs in the 4th innings. Though he himself is probably a perfect example of a guy who wasn’t leaving runs on the table.

Waugh and Border really suffer here

 

[Coronis]

Waugh and Border really suffer here

Both naturally played far less in the 4th innings due to batting down the order and therefore had a much higher percentage of not outs in other innings.