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Hadlee vs Kallis

Hadlee vs Kallis in Tests.


  • Total voters
    42

subshakerz

International Coach
Polls don’t mean zilch. I remember McGrath vs Marshall poll on this very forum where McGrath got like 8 votes vs Marshall’s 30.. Anyone who follows cricket knows gap between the two isn’t significant (if there is any gap at all in the first place)..
Yet there is a gap that is pretty clear and reflected in the poll
 

TheJediBrah

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Gap in the poll number doesn't mean that's how big the gap between the players is

If 1 guy is a 99.5/10 and the other guy is a 99/10 and everyone recognised this then the first guy is going to get all the poll votes, but they are still extremely close in quality
 

akilana

International 12th Man
Yeah but the difference you are talking about is a bowler who averages 35 and takes 1.5 wickets a test minus a regular number 8 averaging 27. Whatever that equals isn't really a lot in real match terms.

Now if you translate the difference between Kallis being who he was and being a true top tier best ever bat, that would come with a more well-rounded record including runs in England and SL, more top notch innings and series, a higher SR, etc. I wager that difference is more than the former.
Lara has well rounded record as a batsman? Akram has a well rounded record as a bowler? Ambrose? Kallis average close to 55 away from him. How many other players did that in the last 30 years. I don’t care for SR. 47 is good. It’s not like Sachin has a SR in the 70s. Kallis hit 3 hundreds and a fifty in a series(2tests) win in Pakistan for example. That’s not a great series? When SA whitewashed WI in 98/99, Kallis averaged 75 against Ambrose over 4 tests and Walsh played 2 of the tests. That’s not great? He was the man of the series in both the series. I guess your problem is you didn’t analyze all of Kallis Innings. You’re just going off the narrative. Nobody really dig up Kallis great series the way people do Sachin and Lara so it never gets posted multiple times. Sachin lacks a winning series like the one Kallis had in Pakistan but still considered top tier batsman. We make excuses for Sachin. We also make excuses for Lara who was terrible in Pakistan and SA when their attack was really good. He still has terrible records in India and NZ. I’m not knocking other great players but every player’s strength is different and they have their weakness. If Kallis was an Indian or Australia player, he’d be certified as the greatest thing ever.

Reading your arguments in this and other comparisons thread, I think your posts say more about you than the players you’re writing about.
 

Zinzan

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Polls don’t mean zilch. I remember McGrath vs Marshall poll on this very forum where McGrath got like 8 votes vs Marshall’s 30.. Anyone who follows cricket knows gap between the two isn’t significant (if there is any gap at all in the first place)..
The gap between Marshall and the likes of McGrath and Hadlee vying for 2nd place isn't significant, but it's still fairly clear imo so not at all surprised with a 30-8 vote in Marshall's favour.
 

subshakerz

International Coach
Lara has well rounded record as a batsman? Akram has a well rounded record as a bowler? Ambrose? Kallis average close to 55 away from him. How many other players did that in the last 30 years. I don’t care for SR. 47 is good. It’s not like Sachin has a SR in the 70s. Kallis hit 3 hundreds and a fifty in a series(2tests) win in Pakistan for example. That’s not a great series? When SA whitewashed WI in 98/99, Kallis averaged 75 against Ambrose over 4 tests and Walsh played 2 of the tests. That’s not great? He was the man of the series in both the series. I guess your problem is you didn’t analyze all of Kallis Innings. You’re just going off the narrative. Nobody really dig up Kallis great series the way people do Sachin and Lara so it never gets posted multiple times. Sachin lacks a winning series like the one Kallis had in Pakistan but still considered top tier batsman. We make excuses for Sachin. We also make excuses for Lara who was terrible in Pakistan and SA when their attack was really good. He still has terrible records in India and NZ. I’m not knocking other great players but every player’s strength is different and they have their weakness. If Kallis was an Indian or Australia player, he’d be certified as the greatest thing ever.

Reading your arguments in this and other comparisons thread, I think your posts say more about you than the players you’re writing about.
Kallis sucked in England and played 15 tests there. If he was Indian or Australian, that weakness in his record would be highlighted more and he wouldn't be accepted as a member of the elite until he rectified that record because series in England tend to be high profile. Look at how much it meant to Kohli in 2018 to score there after failing in 2014.

Never argued that Kallis didn't have some series with high returns, not sure if I would call those great series. I acknowledged before that Sachin lacks top scoring series too and I have criticized Lara for not tonning up against high quality pace attacks. But Tendulkar and Lara had already established themselves as ATGs in a generally tougher era for batting and have other factors that put them above Kallis.

No need to get personal btw.
 

Johan

School Boy/Girl Captain
Hadlee's bowling over Kallis's batting and Hadlee's batting over Kallis's bowling
 

subshakerz

International Coach
Hadlee's bowling over Kallis's batting and Hadlee's batting over Kallis's bowling
That is an interesting point. Conventional wisdom is that Kallis as a regular fifth bowler was better than Hadlee as a supporting bat.

But I wonder if that is the case in a real match situation?

Kallis in his first half of his career was taking 2 wickets a test on average, I think that would roughly equate to a batsman averaging 30. But then Kallis fell away after that.

One reason Sobers is a better bowler than Kallis is that his team relied a lot more on his bowling, he was almost a proper fourth bowler and bowled a lot more per test on average and took over 2 wickets a test.
 

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