Graeme Smith warns Panesar of racist abuse

[Jono]

Was it the South Africans at the MCG that racially abused Indian supporters during the Boxing Day test as well back in 2003?

Smith's a bit of a doofus for saying that though, because his intentions are clear. He couldn't give 2 craps about Monty I imagine.

 

[Slow Love™]

Just because something gets repeated over and over again from the Australian press, doesn't mean its true. To me, the ex-pats just seem like a pretty easy scapegoat for those willing to excuse Australian crowd behavior, and it comes off as a pretty piss poor excuse too.

I agree. It's based on a foolish assumption that Australians don't know terms like "Kaffir", but as I've said before, anybody who's seen Lethal Weapon 2 would be familiar with these terms of abuse. Fundamentally though, I don't know why we keep practicing this denial - it's a small minority of utter tools, and I think we're better off condemning them and acknowledging that something's been done about it, rather than continually writing it off as "expats" (which doesn't even really mean non-Australian anyway, unless you think many immigrants aren't Australian, and do we actually want to go there?). It seems kinda desperate and pig-headed, to me.

But beyond this, I am sick and tired of Graeme Smith bringing this up every few weeks. At a certain point, you have to wonder whether his motives are actually concern for players that might get abused, or an attempt to stir crap up. You be the judge, but here's a memo for Smith:

 

[Jono]

I agree. It's based on a foolish assumption that Australians don't know terms like "Kaffir", but as I've said before, anybody who's seen Lethal Weapon 2 would be familiar with these terms of abuse. Fundamentally though, I don't know why we keep practicing this denial - it's a small minority of utter tools, and I think we're better off condemning them and acknowledging that something's been done about it, rather than continually writing it off as "expats" (which doesn't even really mean non-Australian anyway, unless you think many immigrants aren't Australian, and do we actually want to go there?). It seems kinda desperate and pig-headed, to me.

But beyond this, I am sick and tired of Graeme Smith bringing this up every few weeks. At a certain point, you have to wonder whether his motives are actually concern for players that might get abused, or an attempt to stir crap up. You be the judge, but here's a memo for Smith:

Agree with everything in your post, especially the Lethal Weapon bit.

http://www.fl.net.au/~steve/images/lethalweapon2.jpg

... is an example.

 

[pasag]

No way. Noone is saying there is no abuse in Australian crowds. They may very well be the worst in the world and that should be thoroughly condemed. But, and a very strong but, it doesn't mean we have to take the blame for every bad situation that happens.The case in point was a South African expat and I don't think we should take any responsibility or should get any blame for it. It would be the same with an English expat abusing Monty, an SL expat abusing Murali etc etc.

 

[FRAZ]

I agree. It's based on a foolish assumption that Australians don't know terms like "Kaffir", but as I've said before, anybody who's seen Lethal Weapon 2 would be familiar with these terms of abuse. Fundamentally though, I don't know why we keep practicing this denial - it's a small minority of utter tools, and I think we're better off condemning them and acknowledging that something's been done about it, rather than continually writing it off as "expats" (which doesn't even really mean non-Australian anyway, unless you think many immigrants aren't Australian, and do we actually want to go there?). It seems kinda desperate and pig-headed, to me.

But beyond this, I am sick and tired of Graeme Smith bringing this up every few weeks. At a certain point, you have to wonder whether his motives are actually concern for players that might get abused, or an attempt to stir crap up. You be the judge, but here's a memo for Smith

I agree with you on most of the things you mentioned. And off course it's just a small group of illiterate punks and indecent drinking idiots who spoil the whole scenery . Off course ignoring them seems to be a good idea . And if it happens once in a while then it is fine but continuously if it becomes a headache then there gotta be some sort of an action against such individuals . Its not like we should walk away from all this because this thing is kinda habitual for some people . And I guess the authorities have expressed their concerns about such individuals and they have said that They will take strict actions against such individuals. If so then its great and it also shows that "Some thing was out there". And its also should not be perceived as "generalization" and Australian crowd is overall great and I remember them cheering for both the teams and I remember a particular incident when Shoaib Akhtar was under the suspicion of Chucking . When he came out to bowl then there were huge cheers and it was a great moment. Most of them are decent and well behaved individuals and an awesome crowd but the only problem that I feel is that against those few rotten tomatoes ,not many positive measures were considered . I love to watch the Australian grounds atmosphere(On TV lol) .
Not taking enough actions WAS the basic issue .Lets hope and pray that some thing is done against such individuals !!!

 

[Slow Love™]

No way. Noone is saying there is no abuse in Australian crowds. They may very well be the worst in the world and that should be thoroughly condemed. But, and a very strong but, it doesn't mean we have to take the blame for every bad situation that happens.The case in point was a South African expat and I don't think we should take any responsibility or should get any blame for it. It would be the same with an English expat abusing Monty, an SL expat abusing Murali etc etc.

You've somehow convinced yourself of this, with no proof. This has never actually been established, it's just been insisted on by various people who didn't actually know either, and who clung to the idea that Aussies wouldn't know these words.

But why split hairs? It happened in Australia. We already acknowledge there's a problem with a small minority who think racist abuse is on the table at the cricket, and Cricket Australia are IMO taking appropriate steps to deal with the issue. This whole "expat" thing is pathetic, and we should drop it. I don't personally take the blame for what some other born and bred Aussie idiot says at the cricket, why should that be the issue for you?

 

[Slow Love™]

I agree with you on most of the things you mentioned. And off course it's just a small group of illiterate punks and indecent drinking idiots who spoil the whole scenery . Off course ignoring them seems to be a good idea . And if it happens once in a while then it is fine but continuously if it becomes a headache then there gotta be some sort of an action against such individuals . Its not like we should walk away from all this because this thing is kinda habitual for some people . And I guess the authorities have expressed their concerns about such individuals and they have said that They will take strict actions against such individuals. If so then its great and it also shows that "Some thing was out there". And its also should not be perceived as "generalization" and Australian crowd is overall great and I remember them cheering for both the teams and I remember a particular incident when Shoaib Akhtar was under the suspicion of Chucking . When he came out to bowl then there were huge cheers and it was a great moment. Most of them are decent and well behaved individuals and an awesome crowd but the only problem that I feel is that against those few rotten tomatoes ,not many positive measures were considered . I love to watch the Australian grounds atmosphere(On TV lol) .
Not taking enough actions WAS the basic issue .Lets hope and pray that some thing is done against such individuals !!!

Exactly. If you've got a problem, you should face up to it and deal with it. And Aussie crowds can be quite welcoming to foreign players, too, and there IS an amazing atmosphere at our grounds. It's just a very small minority of schmucks. It also pays to remember that other countries have their issues too, but that's no reason to write off what goes on in your own backyard.

 

[pasag]

You've somehow convinced yourself of this, with no proof. This has never actually been established, it's just been insisted on by various people who didn't actually know either, and who clung to the idea that Aussies wouldn't know these words.

But why split hairs? It happened in Australia. We already acknowledge there's a problem with a small minority who think racist abuse is on the table at the cricket, and Cricket Australia are IMO taking appropriate steps to deal with the issue. This whole "expat" thing is pathetic, and we should drop it. I don't personally take the blame for what some other born and bred Aussie idiot says at the cricket, why should that be the issue for you?

If there is no evidence that they were South African then I'd drop it. But from memory there was.

I don't think the expat thing is pathetic at all. Now I'm not saying that Australians should only take responsibility for the actions of pure white Australians, that would be absurd and idiotic. But what I am saying is that is an expat targets the country that he came from in a racial manner, AUSTRALIA, shouldn't be to blame. Australia shouldn't be looked down upon nor condemed and I refuse to do so. I'm not trying to make an 'us and them' atmosphere, nor trying to say that expats are not real Australians. But what I am trying to get at is the absurditiy of this situation where Australia is being tarnished as racist for the deeds of an expat targeting his former country for whatever baggage exists in this specific case.

Anyways, if you can provide some sort of link or evidence that the guy wasn't an expat then concede. But even if this never happened, in a hypothetical situation I stand by this line of thinking as well. And I would drop it if not for this exact case coming up again and again as can be seen by this thread in question. I hate having to read or witness constant reports of crowd behaviour. It makes me sick to the stomach and something should be done about it, but I don't think that we should be getting **** on for every instance by default.

 

[Slow Love™]

If there is no evidence that they were South African then I'd drop it. But from memory there was.

I don't think the expat thing is pathetic at all. Now I'm not saying that Australians should only take responsibility for the actions of pure white Australians, that would be absurd and idiotic. But what I am saying is that is an expat targets the country that he came from in a racial manner, AUSTRALIA, shouldn't be to blame. Australia shouldn't be looked down upon nor condemed and I refuse to do so. I'm not trying to make an 'us and them' atmosphere, nor trying to say that expats are not real Australians. But what I am trying to get at is the absurditiy of this situation where Australia is being tarnished as racist for the deeds of an expat targeting his former country for whatever baggage exists in this specific case.

Anyways, if you can provide some sort of link or evidence that the guy wasn't an expat then I'll drop it. But even if this never happened, in a hypothetical situation I stand by this as well. And I would drop it if not for this exact case coming up again and again as can be seen by this thread in question.

I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say here if it's not that expats aren't real Australians. I get the distinction you're trying to make, I just don't see why it's so important to you. I also think you are making an assumption to make this true, rather than resting it on a premise you know to be true.

But as to some kind of link or evidence that the guy wasn't an expat - haha, that's a very nice try at a "prove to me that God doesn't exist and I'll cease believing" argument, but none of us actually know who the hell these particular people were. I'm saying there's no reason to automatically assume they are Saffie expats with any kind of certainty, you are completely assuming it to be true with no proof. YOU provide the evidence that they were expats, otherwise you must concede you have no proof that they were - in which case you should cease proclaiming it as fact.

(The funny thing is that I don't even care if they are - I'm just amused by how many people want to run to this with so little basis as some kind of defence. If you think about it, making excuses along these lines is a real can of worms.)

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Yeah, I agree that it does make a difference if it was an ex-pat. There's a significant difference between a bunch of hoons yelling abuse at a guy at the cricket because he's black, and a South African who is currently residing in Australia yelling South African insults at South African black players because they think they shouldn't be in the side or whatever. It doesn't make the behaviour any less objectionable, but it does mean that it has a different significance when you're examining crowd behaviour in Australia.

Similarly, if Australia was to select an Aboriginal player for an Ashes tour and a bunch of Australian fans abused that player over there, I wouldn't consider it the same as said player being abused by the Barmy Army, and I would be disgusted with the fans of my own nation and not England cricket fans in general.

 

[Slow Love™]

On the other hand, if your point is simply that Australian crowds shouldn't be tarnished as racist in general because of the acts of a small minority, I'm in complete agreement. But that doesn't necessitate me running to dismiss the guys responsible for those comments as expats that Australia has no responsibility for or towards.

 

[C_C]

Okay. Enough backpatting. Group hug time

 

[pasag]

This is going around in circles for mine. I don't think I can explain what I'm on about any better so I'll leave it at that.

Anyways, fingers crossed that the crowds will be well behaved this year. The whole world will be watching us and I'm quite nervous that something may go wrong.

 

[Slow Love™]

Yeah, I agree that it does make a difference if it was an ex-pat. There's a significant difference between a bunch of hoons yelling abuse at a guy at the cricket because he's black, and a South African who is currently residing in Australia yelling South African insults at South African black players because they think they shouldn't be in the side or whatever. It doesn't make the behaviour any less objectionable, but it does mean that it has a different significance when you're examining crowd behaviour in Australia.

Similarly, if Australia was to select an Aboriginal player for an Ashes tour and a bunch of Australian fans abused that player over there, I wouldn't consider it the same as said player being abused by the Barmy Army, and I would be disgusted with the fans of my own nation and not England cricket fans in general.

I'll grant it if it's people that aren't citizens, and who are travelling or haven't been in the country for a reasonable length of time - I guess I see expats more as permanent residents. But if it's somebody who's a citizen of the country, it's our problem. And I do believe that if you are willing to make distinctions on that you really are opening up a can of worms.

But what I find surprising in this discussion is people's instant willingness to run there when we actually don't even know that we're even talking about expats. It seems a completely defensive story created by people who didn't want to believe it, and who saw an out when it came to words like "kaffir". Nobody has even said "my, there were a lot of South Africans in that section of the ground", and certainly players like Ntini never said that they sounded like South African accents. It is all completely based on one simple (and IMO rather stupid) conjecture. And either way, it's still an Australian problem in terms of how we decide to deal with it.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Well personally, I'm not arguing that it definitely was ex-pats. I'm simply saying that if it was ex-pats, it has a different significance to native Australians doing and saying the same things.

As far as whether or not it was is concerned, I don't think there's any way to tell. I certainly think it's quite likely that at least some of the people involved were, given that there are a lot of ex-pat South Africans in Perth (which is where these complaints originated), and the word in question was one that has significance in South African culture but most (and I do believe this) Australian cricket fans would not be familiar with and certainly would not use under normal circumstances.

I mean, if fans were shouting insults in urdu to Pakistani players when they were touring Australia it wouldn't necessarily mean that the people doing the shouting were from the subcontinent, but it's not an unreasonable thing to suggest. I don't think authorities in this case can operate on the assumption that the people involved were ex-pats, or even treat the issue differently if they were, but when you're considering the significance of the events and considering the possiblity for future racial abuse of players in Australia I don't think it's an unreasonable suggestion at all.

 

[kwigibo]

Am I the only one who finds it somewhat distateful that Smith is singling out Monty. Perhaps it betrays his own outgroup perceptions. It might be more because of his being Sikh and wearing the associated headwear that he's been brought up so much, because he's certainly not the only player with ancestry from that part of the world to play for England, now or in the past. Did he mention Saj Mahmood?

In which case shouldn't he be warned of cultural or religious abuse, which some Australian fans are regrettably disposed to also. We'll seemingly never be rid of that minority of dunces, so can the media just leave Monty alone and the rest of us spectators can enjoy an english spinner who can actually turn it for once. And as a nation hopefully we'll do our best to stamp out bigoted ideas rather than have to stamp out free speech.

 

[C_C]

IMO, this 'racial abuse' scenario is very easy to deal with if there is any real desire to deal with it : Regardless of rank, social status or connections, issue a lifetime ban from all international grounds ( atleast, in the nation where the abuse is taking place) for the said offender(s). I dont care how many beers or joints are inside the dude/chick- if they resort to racial abuse, they deserve to get banned for life.
Problem solved.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

IMO, this 'racial abuse' scenario is very easy to deal with if there is any real desire to deal with it : Regardless of rank, social status or connections, issue a lifetime ban from all international grounds ( atleast, in the nation where the abuse is taking place) for the said offender(s).
Problem solved.

That requires that the people involved are caught, which so far they haven't been. It's also practically impossible to enforce, a ban of a single individual from every ground in the country. What are you going to do, have their picture up at the turnstyles?

Last year the racial abuse issue was raised by the South African players after the match. You can't exactly go back and ban the people who did it at that point. I do believe though that there will be fairly strict penalties for such behaviour this season, if people are caught in the act, and I've got no problem with that. I'd be a bit concerned if criminal charges or anything were involved, but if you're acting like a hoon and abusing players there's no reason you shouldn't be removed from the ground at least.

 

[Slow Love™]

As far as whether or not it was is concerned, I don't think there's any way to tell. I certainly think it's quite likely that at least some of the people involved were, given that there are a lot of ex-pat South Africans in Perth (which is where these complaints originated), and the word in question was one that has significance in South African culture but most (and I do believe this) Australian cricket fans would not be familiar with and certainly would not use under normal circumstances.

I mean, if fans were shouting insults in urdu to Pakistani players when they were touring Australia it wouldn't necessarily mean that the people doing the shouting were from the subcontinent, but it's not an unreasonable thing to suggest. I don't think authorities in this case can operate on the assumption that the people involved were ex-pats, or even treat the issue differently if they were, but when you're considering the significance of the events and considering the possiblity for future racial abuse of players in Australia I don't think it's an unreasonable suggestion at all.

Your urdu example doesn't even line up - for some (extremely strange, I might add) reason you and others continually ignore a very basic explanation for the use of the word that takes it entirely out of the same context. And no matter how many times I repeat it (and other Australians agree), there still seem to be plenty that completely ignore it. Maybe it suits people's purposes to do so, for the sake of their argument.

But even in the urdu example, you are reducing this to a matter of ethnic background. What happens in our country is our problem, and if we were to find that behaviour of this nature is occurring more in our country than others with expat populations, we would have to face up to what might be a problem for us specifically. We have had a bad few years in this regard, period, and I don't see the value in hiding from it. What if the guys calling urdu were born and raised here? What then? "Our" crowd behaviour should in no way be judged? What about when people hypothesise as to, of all the countries to travel to when the crap hit the fan back home, so many South Africans decided to resettle in Perth? IMO you are going to a very silly place just in order to avoid flak for some specific comments that somebody who may well have been garden-variety Australian (whatever that means) said.

Like I said, if what we are saying is that Aussie crowds shouldn't be generalised as a result of a select few morons, I am in agreement whether they were expats or not. I just don't see the need for this defensiveness.

 

[C_C]

It's also practically impossible to enforce, a ban of a single individual from every ground in the country. What are you going to do, have their picture up at the turnstyles?

Err it is very easy to do- most bookings these days are electronically done(even the ticket issued is electronic in many grounds) - just have a file with blacklisted names on it that automatically overrides a ticket reservation under the same name.

You can't exactly go back and ban the people who did it at that point.

Why not ? the statute of limitation isnt such short term for even petty theft.