Gavaskar/Kapil or Boycott/Botham

[capt_Luffy]

is Larwood in your top 10 fastest bowlers ever?

Never made such a list as no way to verify anyone pre 80s, but should be

 

[subshakerz]

At his best, sure.

Over his best 50%... not so sure.

There is a misconception that Botham was just crap his last career half.

The first half he averaged 39 with the bat and 23 with the ball. ATG numbers.

The next 37 tests were less consistent with 31 with the bat and 135 wickets @33. Now for an off peak phase for an AR I would argue that is still quite good, near Kapil numbers.

He was only complete trash his last 14 tests from 87 onwards.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes that’s why kyear and I get along so swimmingly

You call him out too often for his liking.

 

[The Sean]

He had an ATG series in Pakistan. As I said, I rate him over Colin Croft. I actually rate him over Kapil Dev, Ian Botham and Peter Pollock as well, on par with Neil Adcock. He actually was Great in WI, ATG in SA Currie Cup, one of the best in CC, has an ATG tour in Pakistan and was really Good in that India tour as well.

I think it's drawing a really long bow to label that Pakistan series with the "all time great" tag without providing context for the numbers (which you are usually all about - such why his averaging 34 in India was really good) or completely devaluing the term. 14 wickets at 17 from four Tests is an excellent return, certainly in terms of average, but four other bowlers that series also averaged sub-20 with two more sub-25, and that's without mentioning the couple of part-timers who averaged even less! And the only bloke who really made any meaningful runs was on his own team.

Speaking of which, that must rank under the circumstances as one of Viv's greatest series'. He was in a class of his own at that point.

 

[Johan]

There is a misconception that Botham was just crap his last career half.

The first half he averaged 39 with the bat and 23 with the ball. ATG numbers.

The next 37 tests were less consistent with 31 with the bat and 135 wickets @33. Now for an off peak phase for an AR I would argue that is still quite good, near Kapil numbers.

He was only complete trash his last 14 tests from 87 onwards.

Excellent, this is true, For 50-55% of his career Botham was one of the greatest players ever, for 30% he was just very good and for last few years he was garbage, by 89 he was a legacy act, only on the team sheet to sell tickets.

 

[Bolo.]

There is a misconception that Botham was just crap his last career half.

The first half he averaged 39 with the bat and 23 with the ball. ATG numbers.

The next 37 tests were less consistent with 31 with the bat and 135 wickets @33. Now for an off peak phase for an AR I would argue that is still quite good, near Kapil numbers.

He was only complete trash his last 14 tests from 87 onwards.

Sure, that late middle period is still fine. For more context though, by cutting out the worst of it, you have ended up with numbers that look like the back end of Pollock's career. And his decline isnt exactly fondly remembered either.

 

[Johan]

Have come to think that the gap between Gavaskar and Boycott is rather exaggerated, it's a 50 average against a 48 one and there's not much more to it as their eras are practically the same, they also both have balanced records everywhere. Batting styles are similar, and their critiques are very much applicable to each other in context. Not saying they're equals obviously but the gap, on ability or career, imo is not that big.

 

[DrWolverine]

There was a never big gap between them.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Have come to think that the gap between Gavaskar and Boycott is rather exaggerated, it's a 50 average against a 48 one and there's not much more to it as their eras are practically the same, they also both have balanced records everywhere. Batting styles are similar, and their critiques are very much applicable to each other in context. Not saying they're equals obviously but the gap, on ability or career, imo is not that big.

Yeah, just that between Botham and Kapil is much smaller; and Boycott's prime critique of not having the ability to accelerate does not apply to Gavaskar. They are close in the same way Viv and May or Hutton and Walcott are.

 

[Johan]

Yeah, just that between Botham and Kapil is much smaller; and Boycott's prime critique of not having the ability to accelerate does not apply to Gavaskar. They are close in the same way Viv and May or Hutton and Walcott are.

Boycott can accelerate and play at a respectable SR, look at his last ton in the 1970 Ashes where he targetted Lillee. Boycott has been seriously underrated over the last 4-5 decades, similar to Barrington, due to a weird fetish older english writers and media had for fast scoring.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Boycott can accelerate and play at a respectable SR, look at his last ton in the 1970 Ashes where he targetted Lillee. Boycott has been seriously underrated over the last 4-5 decades, similar to Barrington, due to a weird fetish older english writers and media had for fast scoring.

Gavaskar has a run a ball ton and a 90 to Marshall and Holding though. Still think Boycott and Gavaskar being relatively close is fair.

 

[Johan]

Gavaskar has a run a ball ton and a 90 to Marshall and Holding though. Still think Boycott and Gavaskar being relatively close is fair.

I actually promoted Boycott to the tier 3 among ATGs that I mentioned, where the ability is on par with the 2000s fab 4 but the career is inferior.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I actually promoted Boycott to the tier 3 among ATGs that I mentioned, where the ability is on par with the 2000s fab 4 but the career is inferior.

So comparable to the likes of Weekes, Barrington and Compton?

 

[Johan]

So comparable to the likes of Weekes, Barrington and Compton?

a bit behind them but the same tier, like a less versatile Kenny B.