Garry Sobers vs Imran Khan

[Coronis]

Well, dude was a specialist no 8 who bowled part time......

So yes

 

[kyear2]

Do you accept Imran's overall career bowling stats or just between 76 to 88/89?

Oh right you don't consider those stats that would make his bowling look better. But then you hypocritically bring up the batting stats in that period to ignore his late career batting peak so you can make his batting look worse.

Do you think folks won't spot your silly games?

Can you please stop lying.

Look back over this year, and every single reference to Imran's bowling, and I mean every single reference to Imran's bowling since you started with this, it's from '74 to '88 and I even mention you each time "as per Subz's preference" .

You seem to keep a dossier of my posts, look through all of them, they're framed exactly the same way. And that's because I know you always try this ****.

Even when talking about his away record, as I did recently, I make reference to '74, taking note that going back that far only impacts his record in England. And I did a clear break down of each country the averages and the s/r's, and they were all within that time period. 01 Jan 1974 till 31 Dec 1988, as per your preference. And his home and away splits still comes to 17 at home and 25 away.

And you are the one that proposed this time line, I agreed to use said time line, I reference this time line. But now that we're talking batting, it's you that want to again move the goal posts.

I'm not playing games, these are your rules. And you've said this is a fair time period to judge his bowling and career, until now.

During the period that you subscribe too for his career, where he was an opening bowler, he had a rpi of 27. He boosted his career average basically those last few years when his bowling was so bad, that you ask for it to be stricken from his record because he was basically playing as a batsman. You...

So simply... Do you want to use the '74 to '88 model for both or do you now what to change it?

 

[kyear2]

I would call Vettori or Cairns the best 7/8 tbh.

Was making out a list today, and they certainly are among the top 3?

 

[subshakerz]

Can you please stop lying.

Look back over this year, and every single reference to Imran's bowling, and I mean every single reference to Imran's bowling since you started with this, it's from '74 to '88 and I even mention you each time "as per Subz's preference" .

You seem to keep a dossier of my posts, look through all of them, they're framed exactly the same way. And that's because I know you always try this ****.

Even when talking about his away record, as I did recently, I make reference to '74, taking note that going back that far only impacts his record in England. And I did a clear break down of each country the averages and the s/r's, and they were all within that time period. 01 Jan 1974 till 31 Dec 1988, as per your preference. And his home and away splits still comes to 17 at home and 25 away.

And you are the one that proposed this time line, I agreed to use said time line, I reference this time line. But now that we're talking batting, it's you that want to again move the goal posts.

I'm not playing games, these are your rules. And you've said this is a fair time period to judge his bowling and career, until now.

During the period that you subscribe too for his career, where he was an opening bowler, he had a rpi of 27. He boosted his career average basically those last few years when his bowling was so bad, that you ask for it to be stricken from his record because he was basically playing as a batsman. You...

So simply... Do you want to use the '74 to '88 model for both or do you now what to change it?

It's precisely because folks use his entire career as reference that I refer to collective stats.

@Bolo. suggested I change to the 76 to 88/89 timeline and convinced me a short while ago.

And you didn't address the point, do you consider only his bowling stats for that period (can start either 74 or 76) valid or do you not? In other words, a bowling average of 21 with a SR of 50? Yes or no?

 

[Bolo.]

What exactly is an ATG lower order bat. He's not comparable to a specialist top order batsman, as implied by the lower order lead in. He's a below average test batsman as a useful lower order one.

My argument is if I had to choose between him as my strike bowler or Taylor as my opening batsman, it's easily Taylor as my opening batsman.

If I don't trust him as my strike bowler, the rest doesn't matter, as I made in argument with him vs Walsh. And an inconsistent lower order bat doesn't impact the game nearly as often or as much as is believed around these parts and is not something to build a team or primarily base a selection around.

He is a bowler. His batting is very much ATG by the standards of bowlers.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

What exactly is an ATG lower order bat. He's not comparable to a specialist top order batsman, as implied by the lower order lead in. He's a below average test batsman as a useful lower order one.

My argument is if I had to choose between him as my strike bowler or Taylor as my opening batsman, it's easily Taylor as my opening batsman.

If I don't trust him as my strike bowler, the rest doesn't matter, as I made in argument with him vs Walsh. And an inconsistent lower order bat doesn't impact the game nearly as often or as much as is believed around these parts and is not something to build a team or primarily base a selection around.

When Greenidge and Kapil played together ( Kapil debut to Greenidge retirement )
Both played around 150 innings ( Kapil close to 160 )
And Greenidge scored 39 fifty plus scores, while Kapil scored 30 fifty plus scores.

And you think Kapil is inconsistent.

 

[kyear2]

It's precisely because folks use his entire career as reference that I refer to collective stats.

@Bolo. suggested I change to the 76 to 88/89 timeline and convinced me a short while ago.

And you didn't address the point, do you consider only his bowling stats for that period (can start either 74 or 76) valid or do you not? In other words, a bowling average of 21 with a SR of 50? Yes or no?

Yes I've used only that period for his blowing stats. '74 to '88, been referencing it for months.

17 average at home with a s/r of 43

Compared to

25 average away with a s/r of 56

 

[kyear2]

He is a bowler. His batting is very much ATG by the standards of bowlers.

That's not a thing.

Like seriously?

 

[subshakerz]

Yes I've used only that period for his blowing stats. '74 to '88, been referencing it for months.

17 average at home with a s/r of 43

Compared to

25 average away with a s/r of 56

76 to 88/89 as per Bolo and it's less than 25. Btw Ambrose has a home SR of 56. Steyn has the away average of 25.

Anyways it doesn't matter because we know either way you don't practically take those numbers for Imran.

 

[kyear2]

76 to 88/89 as per Bolo and it's less than 25. Btw Ambrose has a home SR of 56. Steyn has the away average of 25.

Anyways it doesn't matter because we know either way you don't practically take those numbers for Imran.

You started off with '74, asked me previously about the same time period, had this convo already about if I would accept that time period, all of a sudden we're moving the goal posts again to suit your statistical wishes.

You will also recognize that you had to take amalgamated stats from two other players to match his two actual away numbers.

But I'll answer.

1. Ambrose was a different type of bowler, more short of a length bowler who played on some flat pitches that some downgrade Lara for gorging on, but more importantly... You criticize Ambrose for his strike rate. You literally use it as you primary point to "downgrade him". He wasn't penetrative I believe are your exact words.

2. Steyn played in what can only be deemed as one of the two genuinely flat eras of the games history. So yes, his away average is higher. Imran played in an era where everyone either averaged the same home and away or even lower away from home. Do you see the difference?

So basically Ambrose's strike rate is enough for you to "downgrade him", Steyn is pinged for his away average in a flat era, but Imran has both, and in a neutral / bowling era, and it's not relevant?

And you know these things.

Then you play away valid critiques as nothing but bias, rather than acknowledging them for what they are.

 

[subshakerz]

You started off with '74, asked me previously about the same time period, had this convo already about if I would accept that time period, all of a sudden we're moving the goal posts again to suit your statistical wishes.

You will also recognize that you had to take amalgamated stats from two other players to match his two actual away numbers.

But I'll answer.

1. Ambrose was a different type of bowler, more short of a length bowler who played on some flat pitches that some downgrade Lara for gorging on, but more importantly... You criticize Ambrose for his strike rate. You literally use it as you primary point to "downgrade him". He wasn't penetrative I believe are your exact words.

2. Steyn played in what can only be deemed as one of the two genuinely flat eras of the games history. So yes, his away average is higher. Imran played in an era where everyone either averaged the same home and away or even lower away from home. Do you see the difference?

So basically Ambrose's strike rate is enough for you to "downgrade him", Steyn is pinged for his away average in a flat era, but Imran has both, and in a neutral / bowling era, and it's not relevant?

And you know these things.

Then you play away valid critiques as nothing but bias, rather than acknowledging them for what they are.

Funny how Ambrose gets credit for flat home pitches over Imran somehow

And I critique Ambrose WPM outside Aus Eng based on penetration, specific countries, not an overall measure.

Special pleading for Steyn honestly because we know you aren't giving Imran points for flatness at home.

All self serving arguments.

 

[Bolo.]

76 to 88/89 as per Bolo and it's less than 25. Btw Ambrose has a home SR of 56. Steyn has the away average of 25.

Anyways it doesn't matter because we know either way you don't practically take those numbers for Imran.

I only say that for calculating longevity. If you want to trim out early career poor performances from Imran's stats, you need to do it for everyone else too. Which reflects better on some others than Imran.

 

[Coronis]

I only say that for calculating longevity. If you want to trim out early career poor performances from Imran's stats, you need to do it for everyone else too. Which reflects better on some others than Imran.

Anyone specifically? (just cos I remember early Imran being really poor)

 

[Bolo.]

Anyone specifically? (just cos I remember early Imran being really poor)

Imran was really poor. But that's not unique. Most players who debut reasonably young are initially. He had his stats protected prior to 76 by getting dropped and playing only 4 games in total.*

Some ATGs who got their stats damaged by playing a lot of games before they got good are Murali and Hadlee.

*Not that he started peaking in 76 either, but that's a different conversation.

 

[kyear2]

Funny how Ambrose gets credit for flat home pitches over Imran somehow

And I critique Ambrose WPM outside Aus Eng based on penetration, specific countries, not an overall measure.

Special pleading for Steyn honestly because we know you aren't giving Imran points for flatness at home.

All self serving arguments.

Where is getting credit?

And we're going to pretend we don't know how Imran averaged 12 in Pakistan for a couple years?

You specifically say that he lacked penetration, and use WPM as a metric. But that's also a more an indicator of use. Penetration is more accurately gauged by aforementioned S/R

So Ambrose
In Pak - 5 matches, avg of 25 s/r 60
In S/A - 4 matches, avg of 23 s/r 57

I assume those are the two countries you reference

So Imran
In Australia - 10 matches, avg of 27, s/r 64
In England - 10 matches, avg of 23, s/r 59
In India - 10 matches, avg of 28, s/r 61
In NZ - 4 matches, avg of 26, s/r 75

So was Imran more penetrative or did he just bowl more?

It's a double standard you continue to perpetuate.

Yes, Steyn's dominance of the flat era is a bit overplayed, but he did play in an era where we look at the averages of the top batsmen in a different light to even those from the decade before.

So I'll ask that you entertain me please.

How did Imran do so well at home? How could he handle flatness at home and not in India? At his peak in the 80's he was averaging 12 at home and 28 in India, what was the difference?
And in an era where Pakistan was the most difficult of conditions, why didn't he perform even better in more helpful conditions?

Simple questions. Stop pretending that he cracked some secret code at home and we take away his due credit.

 

[subshakerz]

Where is getting credit?

And we're going to pretend we don't know how Imran averaged 12 in Pakistan for a couple years?

You specifically say that he lacked penetration, and use WPM as a metric. But that's also a more an indicator of use. Penetration is more accurately gauged by aforementioned S/R

So Ambrose
In Pak - 5 matches, avg of 25 s/r 60
In S/A - 4 matches, avg of 23 s/r 57

I assume those are the two countries you reference

So Imran
In Australia - 10 matches, avg of 27, s/r 64
In England - 10 matches, avg of 23, s/r 59
In India - 10 matches, avg of 28, s/r 61
In NZ - 4 matches, avg of 26, s/r 75

So was Imran more penetrative or did he just bowl more?

It's a double standard you continue to perpetuate.

Yes, Steyn's dominance of the flat era is a bit overplayed, but he did play in an era where we look at the averages of the top batsmen in a different light to even those from the decade before.

So I'll ask that you entertain me please.

How did Imran do so well at home? How could he handle flatness at home and not in India? At his peak in the 80's he was averaging 12 at home and 28 in India, what was the difference?
And in an era where Pakistan was the most difficult of conditions, why didn't he perform even better in more helpful conditions?

Simple questions. Stop pretending that he cracked some secret code at home and we take away his due credit.

I don't want to debate something we have debated a million times again. You have a big problem with this.

All I ask if that you properly represent my arguments rather than strawman.

 

[sayon basak]

I don't want to debate something we have debated a million times again. You have a big problem with this.

All I ask if that you properly represent my arguments rather than strawman.

You could answer the question he asked in 2/3 lines imo.

 

[subshakerz]

You could answer the question he asked in 2/3 lines imo.

I have, we have literally discussed this stuff dozens of times and he still misrepresents me.

 

[kyear2]

You could answer the question he asked in 2/3 lines imo.

Go ahead.

 

[kyear2]

I don't want to debate something we have debated a million times again. You have a big problem with this.

All I ask if that you properly represent my arguments rather than strawman.

And I have my answer.