Garry Sobers vs Imran Khan

[subshakerz]

McGrath is the better bowler. Who he's gonna rate ahead as a cricketer depends on how he thinks the gap is between their Primary and how he rates Hadlee's batting. Don't think he rates Hadlee's batting much higher than Marshall's.

Peer rep might have something to do as well.

He has said Hadlee and McGrath are extremely close as bowlers

 

[Thala_0710]

I think that's only as a bowler. They don't often get directly compared outside.

I mean just today there's been a discussion on Scyld's top 40 cricketers list, McGrath is higher than Hadlee there.

 

[sayon basak]

He has said Hadlee and McGrath are extremely close as bowlers

I quit.

 

[kyear2]

But an argument can't be made for Imran > Marshall (or McGrath). Right?

As bowlers no, don't think it's close.

As cricketers, of course. It's just not an argument I would make.

I have Imran as a top 10 cricketer of all time, it's time you guys stop with the pretense that I think he's nonsense. I think he's. Wet comparable as cricketers to the likes of Kallis and of recent, especially Hammond.

 

[kyear2]

As a player the argument is obvious. As for including him in an XI, “I want all my bowlers to be good with the bat” suffices. (e.g you could go Imran, Hadlee, Pollock, Ashwin ascribing to that philosophy). As a bowler its just the reverse swinging argument, which is a philosophy some might ascribe to.

But an argument can't be made for Imran > Marshall (or McGrath). Right?

Ahh, came here made a post, not a negative word written. Didn't even mention Imran.

But I'm the one obsessed.

Didn't refer to any poster in a negative light, just being positive.

No reference to the actual post, but just a string of ad hominem attacks and unrelated comments.

Yup, this forum hasn't degraded into a toxic highschool clique at all.

You'll don't debate points, you come at posters.

 

[kyear2]

Kyear2 also considers Mark Taylor as a better cricketer than Kapil Dev.

I do not rate Kapil Dev.

If I'm choosing either for my team I'm choosing Taylor or Simpson over him.

A 40 averaging opening batsman in the 90's, the only legitimately great captain of note I've seen and one of the handful I've read about, and one of the greatest slip fielders of all time? Yes.

Kapil was the worst if the great 4 all rounder by some distance. As a bowler the distance is even greater and he was arguably only better than Hadlee with the bat, and even there, less consistent.

In an era of Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, Holding, Garner and Marshall I struggle to call him world-class with the ball, and he was a lower order hitter with the bat.

I understand it's not a popular choice, but tell what was Kapil particularly great at, not ATG, but great.

Considering the eras they both played in, I would consider Taylor's batting a bit more impressive. Again, not a popular view, but.....

 

[kyear2]

And McGrath a better test cricketer, not bowler, than Hadlee.

Yes I do.

Apparently it's open season and all kinds of unrelated **** is coming up.

 

[kyear2]

View attachment 48282

Then clearly define why.

 

[kyear2]

As a cricketer? How?

How is Sachin the cricketer better than Kallis or Hammond?

I'm earnestly listening, because the hypocrisy is stifling.

 

[kyear2]

It really depends upon the perceived bowling gap. And outside CW, McGrath over Hadlee is actually the accepted order wherever we see (even as a cricketer)

McGrath is generally seen as ahead by most pundits.

 

[kyear2]

I quit.

As I posted somewhere earlier today, I have McGrath clearly ahead of Hadlee. It's not a discussion for me tbh.

 

[sayon basak]

As I posted somewhere earlier today, I have McGrath clearly ahead of Hadlee. It's not a discussion for me tbh.

Is it not close as bowlers?

 

[Johan]

Then clearly define why.

It could very easily be argued that Kapil was better than Taylor on primary disciplines, 6 years longer career, much better away work, carried a weak lineup, home dominance regardless of pitches being negative to his bowling and so forth. You add another 30 run of consistent lower order output and the ability to support the innings of top batters and as far as I'm concerned, Kapil is clearly ahead. Taylor's tertiary pushes them close but the gap in secondary is too big.

 

[kyear2]

Is it not close as bowlers?

Not to the point where I struggle to separate them.

In my last list I posted in April, they're not even in the same tier.

 

[kyear2]

It could very easily be argued that Kapil was better than Taylor on primary disciplines, 6 years longer career, much better away work, carried a weak lineup, home dominance regardless of pitches being negative to his bowling and so forth. You add another 30 run of consistent lower order output and the ability to support the innings of top batters and as far as I'm concerned, Kapil is clearly ahead. Taylor's tertiary pushes them close but the gap in secondary is too big.

As I've long said, longevity has never swayed me the way it does others. One if the many reasons I don't rate Lebron nearly as the GOAT as some do.

I think I can argue, though not as confidently as some other discussions, that as far a primary goes that Taylor, considering the era, performed better than Kapil did.
Supplementary, for the team set up, with McWarne, that Taylor's slip catching contributed greatly to McWarne's and the team's wins and overall successes.

When you throw in possibly the best on field captain in the sport, then yes. I'm taking Taylor for my team. He opened in the 90's.

Let's put it this way, for this current WI team, for me it's not a contest.
If I was forced to select one for an AT XI, I'm taking Taylor.

It's ok if we disagree, we don't have to for everything.

 

[Johan]

As I've long said, longevity has never swayed me the way it does others. One if the many reasons I don't rate Lebron nearly as the GOAT as some do.

I think I can argue, though not as confidently as some other discussions, that as far a primary goes that Taylor, considering the era, performed better than Kapil did.
Supplementary, for the team set up, with McWarne, that Taylor's slip catching contributed greatly to McWarne's and the team's wins and overall successes.

When you throw in possibly the best on field captain in the sport, then yes. I'm taking Taylor for my team. He opened in the 90's.

Let's put it this way, for this current WI team, for me it's not a contest.
If I was forced to select one for an AT XI, I'm taking Taylor.

It's ok if we disagree, we don't have to for everything.

Fair enough, I guess it comes down to us valuing slip fielding differently.

 

[sayon basak]

In my last list I posted in April, they're not even in the same tier.

That's kinda extreme.

 

[kyear2]

That's kinda extreme.

I've never seen him placed in the GOAT debate, he never makes AT XI's, his peer rating in the era isn't close to Marshall's or even Lillee's.

Numbers are there yes, but the rest of it has always been suspiciously lacking.

 

[kyear2]

That's kinda extreme.

Top 20 Batsman
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Richards
Hobbs

Smith
Lara
Hutton
Richards

Gavaskar
Hammond
Chappell
Headley
Pollock
Ponting

Kallis
Sangakkara
Waugh
Dravid
Root


Top 16 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath

Hadlee
Warne
Steyn
Muralitharan
Ambrose

Imran
O'Reilly
Lillee
Donald
Wasim

Holding
Lindwall
Trueman
Garner


Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis
Barlow
Lloyd


Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Gilchrist
Miller

Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Procter
Knott


Top 8 Captains
Taylor
Benaud

Ranatunga
Worrell
Jardine
Border
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI (1)

Sir Leonard Hutton
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman ©
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^⁵
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Wasim Akram ³
Malcolm Marshall ¹
Shane Warne ⁴
Glenn McGrath ²

All Time XI (2)

Sir John Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Walter Hammond^
Brian Lara^
Steve Smith
Jacques Kallis^⁵
Imran Khan©³
Allan Knott (wk)
Richard Hadlee ²
Dale Steyn ¹
Muttiah Muralitharan ⁴

All Time XI (3)

Herbert Sutcliffe
Graeme Smith^©
George Headley
Greg Chappell^
Ricky Ponting^
Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
Keith Miller ⁵
Mike Procter ³
Sir Curtly Ambrose ²
Dennis Lillee ¹
William O'Reilly ⁴

All Time XI (4)

Sir Gordon Greenidge^
Matthew Hayden^
Rahul Dravid^
Graeme Pollock
Sir Frank Worrell ⁵
Allan Border ©
Leslie Ames (wk)
Alan Davidson ²
Hugh Tayfield ⁴
Joel Garner ³
Allan Donald ¹

All Time XI (5)

Robert Simpson^
Edgar Barlow^⁵
Kenneth Barrington
Sir Everton Weekes^
Javed Miandad
Stephen Waugh ©
Sir Clyde Walcott (wk)
Shaun Pollock ³
Raymond Lindwall ¹
Michael Holding ²
James Laker ³

All Time XI (6)

Virender Sehwag
Geoffrey Boycott
Neil Harvey^
Younis Khan
Clive Lloyd^©
Anthony Greig^ ⁵
BJ Watling (wk)
Ravichandran Ashwin ⁴
Frederick Teueman ¹
Waqar Younis ³
Jasprit Bumrah ²

All Time Australia XI

Robert Simpson^⁵
Matthew Hayden
Sir Donald Bradman
Steven Smith^
Greg Chappell^
Allan Border ©
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Alan Davidson ³
Shane Warne ⁴
Dennis Lillee ¹
Glenn McGrath ²

All Time West Windies XI

Sir Frank Worrell ©
Sir Gordon Greenidge
Sir George Headley
Sir I. V.A. Richards^
Brian Lara^
Sir Garfield Sobers^⁴
Sir Clyde Walcott (wk)
Malcolm Marshall ¹
Michael Holding ³
Sir Curtly Ambrose ²
Lance Gibbs ⁵

South Africa All Time XI

Barry Richards^
Graeme Smith ©
Jacques Kallis^⁵
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse
A.B. de Villiers^
Jock Cameron (wk)
Mike Procter ³
Dale Steyn ¹
Hugh Tayfield ⁴
Allan Donald ²

Pakistan All Time XI

Saeed Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Younis Khan^
Javed Miandad ^
Inzamam Up Haq
Mushtaq Mohammad
Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
Imran Khan ©¹
Wasim Akram ²
Saqlain Mushtaq ⁴
Waqar Younis ³

England All Time XI

Sir John Hobbs
Sir Leonard Hutton ©
Walter Hammond^
Joseph Root
Ken Barrington^
Ian Botham^ ⁴
Allan Knott (wk)
Hedley Verity ⁵
Frederick Trueman ¹
Frank Tyson ³
James Anderson ²

India All Time XI

Sunil Gavaskar^
Virender Sehwag^
Rahul Dravid^
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli ©
Rishabh Pant (wk)
Ravindra Jadeja ⁵
Kapil Dev ³
Ravichandran Ashwin ⁴
Mohammad Shami ²
Jasprit Bumrah ¹


Top 40 cricketers of All Time

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Warne / Hadlee / McGrath / Tendulkar / Richards

Tier 2
Imran / Steyn / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Kallis / Hutton / Ambrose / Gilchrist / Richards / Gavaskar / O'Reilly / Lillee / Headley / Wasim

Tier 3
Chappell / Donald / Border / Ponting / Sangakkara / Lindwall / Miller / Knott / Holding / Pollock / Waugh / Procter / Pollock / Dravid / Davidson

Still up there, but no, not quite as good as the other two for me.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[subshakerz]

How is Sachin the cricketer better than Kallis or Hammond?

I'm earnestly listening, because the hypocrisy is stifling.

Sachin is greater but Kallis is better.