Garry Sobers vs Imran Khan

[sayon basak]

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[ankitj]

Does Imran's relative reputation amongst the "experts" suffer due to the same phenomenon – if you didn't break on to the international scene with reputation of a prodigy but instead raised your game later, you don't get favourable rating compared to those with reverse career trajectory?

 

[Coronis]

Does Imran's relative reputation amongst the "experts" suffer due to the same phenomenon – if you didn't break on to the international scene with reputation of a prodigy but instead raised your game later, you don't get favourable rating compared to those with reverse career trajectory?

I mean were Sobers or Hadlee phenoms?

But it definitely feels a trend with certain players.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Does Imran's relative reputation amongst the "experts" suffer due to the same phenomenon – if you didn't break on to the international scene with reputation of a prodigy but instead raised your game later, you don't get favourable rating compared to those with reverse career trajectory?

Not sure in this case because the likes of hadlee, Marshall were also not prodigies. Likely he was just rated worse because was marginally less great .

 

[CodeOfWisden]

Sobers, if Imran was black then him.

 

[subshakerz]

Don't think you've even touched the real heart of what was discussed.

Even in his last 52 tests where he averaged over 50, his output never came close to that of a 50 averaging batsman.

Compare the runs score to his teammate. He played 2 more matches, 2 less innings and 1000 less runs, and 13 more not outs.

That's not even touching the sole hundred that came in a victory, which was not what one would label overly impactful. Two came in save jobs in draws and the rest were garnered in high scoring draws.

That still doesn't get into the fact that his numbers didn't fully soar to give him the average he ended up with, until he basically stopped bowling.

Sobers's role was never about the numbers. He bowled countless overs with the old ball to defensive fields when he was the best or one of the two only viable options with the ball. He was the stop bowler, who probably bowled more overs in unfavorable conditions than any non spinner in the history of the game.

We had a discussion a few days ago, about how 5th bowlers are rated and what their primary responsibilities are.
It was something along the lines that just bowling the overs, allowing for the intended rotation to be completed, while not being taken apart is the objective.

Yes, both of their numbers are quite misleading, but there's no doubt which had more impact of their team and more valuable to how the team was run. One also came in during the best conditions to perform later in the order, while the other was blowing those overs, under those conditions.

And none of this is to say that one was far ahead of the other in said secondary discipline, it's very close. I just think that Sober's volume and grunt work is slightly ahead.

And as for the overall discussion. You constantly slag on Kallis to say that he wasn't recognized as one of the great all rounders until right before his retirement.
You're the peer ratings guy, when during Imran's career was he ever recognized or mentioned as being where this discussion places him. When exactly during his career was he ever discussed as being right up there behind Bradman. I would say, but we both know the answer. It was always the great all rounders from the 80's, that's how they were discussed and for some period of time it was Botham (probably unfairly, but yeah, Ashes) who was seen as the best. But yeah, that discussion never happened. I'm not saying it's definitive, but it's an argument that you consistently throw out against Kallis.

And finally and equally pertinent to this argument. With the Steyn conversations the last week or so, been watching a lot of him, highlights, extended cuts, batsmen who scored against him etc... Those who continue to say that slip cordons aren't impactful beyond some after though, and not comparable to other secondary skills, should sincerely take a second look with fresh eyes. Having that guy at 2nd (well the entire cordon, but especially) is just about as crucial to teams as your no. 8 and 5th bowler.

And again, not saying Imran wasn't an elite ATG , he definitely was... he's also not a top 5 guy for me either, that's all.

Imran was more suitably as a lower order bat by the standards of his time than Sobers as a bowler. His supposed 'lower output' has to be balanced with him playing lower in the order at 6/7. But overall he fits in comfortably with mid-30 averaging bats at no.6 that every side had.


He was averaging 40 in his bowling prime phase and much higher towards career end. If you want his batting career peak to be just his career end, then give those numbers. I have given them for you, he has a batting average of 60 and is far ahead of Sobers bowler peak while being better than him outside it too.

If you want to rate Sobers as bowlers ahead based on grunt work, fine. But he wasn't very effective in wicettaking overall.

You are lying again about Kallis. I never suggested he had a peer rating problem as an AR, only as a bat.

Imran as an overall cricketer has consensus of being the best AR of the four, is repeatedly rated ahead of the others in top 10 cricketer lists and features in more ATG XIs. I have given you the references already.

Needless mention of Steyn at the end.

 

[subshakerz]

Does Imran's relative reputation amongst the "experts" suffer due to the same phenomenon – if you didn't break on to the international scene with reputation of a prodigy but instead raised your game later, you don't get favourable rating compared to those with reverse career trajectory?

Imran's reputation as an overall cricketer is quite high though, features in enough top 10 cricketer lists and ATG XIs, generally seen as best of the AR quartet, but somewhat overshadowed by him as a great captain.

As a bowler, he is somewhat underrated but during his career, he was seen as the best in the world around 81 to 83, rated Wisden Cricketer of the Year, but then got injured during his peak for two years and when he returned, Marshall had rose up by then. Timing matters quite a bit.

 

[DrWolverine]

When comparing all time greats, there is very little difference between them and it comes down to personal preference to many.

For example : Glen McGrath is a more consistent bowler compared to Dale Steyn who could be cold on some days but Steyn could win matches on his day better than Pigeon. It ultimately comes down to your choice and what you prefer in a bowler.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Sobers, if Imran was black then him.

It has nothing to do with race. If Sobers had been an Indian, they would have literally made temple on him. The guy was a phenomenon. A greater genius than say someone like Messi, just happens to come from a sport which is smaller worldwide.

 

[Thala_0710]

It has nothing to do with race. If Sobers had been an Indian, they would have literally made temple on him. The guy was a phenomenon. A greater genius than say someone like Messi, just happens to come from a sport which is smaller worldwide.

Nah, he ain't a bigger genius than Messi

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Nah, he ain't a bigger genius than Messi

In a world where Bradman doesn’t exist, Sobers is arguably the best batsman ever. With only Hobbs and Sachin up for any debate. Just add to the fact the guy was a genuinely ATVG level quick bowler. Add fielding up to the equation too if needed. One of the best fielders ever.

Also the swag of the man. The guy was a phenomenon. Would take him over Messi everyday of a week. Anyway this comparison with Imran is not any close at all.

Sobers as a Batsman > Imran as a bowler
Sobers as a Bowler > Imran as a batsman
Sobers as a Fielder >>> Imran as a fielder

 

[Thala_0710]

In a world where Bradman doesn’t exist, Sobers is arguably the best batsman ever. With only Hobbs and Sachin up for any debate. Just add to the fact the guy was a genuinely ATVG level quick bowler. Add fielding up to the equation too if needed. One of the best fielders ever.

Also the swag of the man. The guy was a phenomenon. Would take him over Messi everyday of a week. Anyway this comparison with Imran is not any close at all.

Sobers as a Batsman > Imran as a bowler
Sobers as a Bowler > Imran as a batsman
Sobers as a Fielder >>> Imran as a fielder

I have Sobers>Imran too but don't agree with most of what you've written here. This is overrating Sobers a bit imo. I would have Lara over Sobers as well and you can certainly debate him with others like Richards. He isn't an ATVG level quick bowler for me either.
And let's not go into Messi vs Sobers

 

[DrWolverine]

Thank God Bradman exists or else people will argue forever who is the greatest batsman.

I can argue that Sobers wasn’t even the best of his era and Ken Barrington had a better and more complete record and is underrated because of his dull batting.

 

[subshakerz]

Just add to the fact the guy was a genuinely ATVG level quick bowler. Add fielding up to the equation too if needed. One of the best fielders ever.

Sobers wasnt ATVG as a bowler.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

I have Sobers>Imran too but don't agree with most of what you've written here. This is overrating Sobers a bit imo. I would have Lara over Sobers as well and you can certainly debate him with others like Richards. He isn't an ATVG level quick bowler for me either.
And let's not go into Messi vs Sobers

Sobers as a batsman is an upgrade on Lara. Lot better against raw pace and no slouch against spin either. I wouldn’t go on about comparison across sports. I would take Sobers everyday but ofc it will be all flawed logic for either.

The charisma, the walk, the athleticism, the swagger, the flair Sobers had it all. Other than being slightly taller, there is nothing anyone can expect better.

 

[subshakerz]

Sobers as a batsman is an upgrade on Lara. Lot better against raw pace and no slouch against spin either. I wouldn’t go on about comparison across sports. I would take Sobers everyday but ofc it will be all flawed logic for either.

The charisma, the walk, the athleticism, the swagger, the flair Sobers had it all. Other than being slightly taller, there is nothing anyone can expect better.

Yeah Sobers as bat is not underrated at all

 

[ankitj]

Imran's reputation as an overall cricketer is quite high though, features in enough top 10 cricketer lists and ATG XIs, generally seen as best of the AR quartet, but somewhat overshadowed by him as a great captain.

Not high enough. Tendulkar, Lillee, Hobbs, Richards are frequently ranked higher which is ridiculous.

 

[Coronis]

In a world where Bradman doesn’t exist, Sobers is arguably the best batsman ever. With only Hobbs and Sachin up for any debate. Just add to the fact the guy was a genuinely ATVG level quick bowler. Add fielding up to the equation too if needed. One of the best fielders ever.

Also the swag of the man. The guy was a phenomenon. Would take him over Messi everyday of a week. Anyway this comparison with Imran is not any close at all.

Sobers as a Batsman > Imran as a bowler
Sobers as a Bowler > Imran as a batsman
Sobers as a Fielder >>> Imran as a fielder

Needed a laugh from a different poster, thanks mate.

Thank God Bradman exists or else people will argue forever who is the greatest batsman.

I can argue that Sobers wasn’t even the best of his era and Ken Barrington had a better and more complete record and is underrated because of his dull batting.

Give this man his doctorate.

 

[OverratedSanity]

But Imran had a superior average (not outs don't increase your average).

From 1982-1991, Allan Border and Imran Khan both averaged 53. Do you think imran was as good a batsman as border in this period. If not, why.

 

[Coronis]

From 1982-1991, Allan Border and Imran Khan both averaged 53. Do you think imran was as good a batsman as imran in this period. If not, why.

Definitely not.