Fleming to open in SA tests?

[Pratters]

Its not a good idea to have Fleming open. We got Dravid to open in the tests and it didnt work out at all. Dravid said that although it seems the same as batting at number 3 as the openers were getting out soon anyway, the mental frame of an opener and a number 3 and other batsmen is not the same. Saying that, some people can infact make a transformation from a middle order to an opener, like Shastri who averaged pretty well in tests opening the innings.

 

[Tim]

In some ways it doesn't even matter because Vincent was out before 2 overs were even up during that test series.
Technically he was opening because Vincent was an automatic wicket really.

 

[Pratters]

In some ways it doesn't even matter because Vincent was out before 2 overs were even up during that test series.
Technically he was opening because Vincent was an automatic wicket really.

It was the same scenario when India were struggling to find opener who could even get past single digit partnerships. There is a difference mentally as said by Dravid. Some people may be able to adjust, some people wont.

 

[Craig]

Is Ross Taylor any good?

Rob Nicol has been inconsistant in the SS.

 

[Tim]

Well Ross Taylor is fairly new, and I haven't really seen him bat as yet so its unfair to make a call on him.

He was the NZ U19's captain and as some of his stats show, he can be very destructive. I think he's at least 2 or 3 seasons away from being picked in the NZ side, he probably hasn't come onto the FC scene with the same profile that the likes of Ryder, Broom & Nicol have.

 

[Token]

Its not a good idea to have Fleming open. We got Dravid to open in the tests and it didnt work out at all. Dravid said that although it seems the same as batting at number 3 as the openers were getting out soon anyway, the mental frame of an opener and a number 3 and other batsmen is not the same. Saying that, some people can infact make a transformation from a middle order to an opener, like Shastri who averaged pretty well in tests opening the innings.

However Fleming already opens in ODI cricket as opposed to Dravid which would make the transfer that much easier.

 

[Craig]

As Simon Allen played domestic cricket just yet?

 

[Tim]

Simon Allen & James Hill were in the Wellington training squad this season I think, but neither have made their debuts yet.

 

[Pratters]

However Fleming already opens in ODI cricket as opposed to Dravid which would make the transfer that much easier.

Not really considering M.Waugh, S.Ganguly and others have also opened in one dayers but couldnt open in tests for toffees.

Dravid has a gr8 tecnique but didnt really convert as a test opener. This means no matter how Fleming is, he may or may not succeed opening. Its all about temperament.

 

[Token]

Not really considering M.Waugh, S.Ganguly and others have also opened in one dayers but couldnt open in tests for toffees.

Dravid has a gr8 tecnique but didnt really convert as a test opener. This means no matter how Fleming is, he may or may not succeed opening. Its all about temperament.

'If' they make Fleming open then even though he has the mind-set of a number 3 the very very shaky NZ top order over the last 5-6 years has prepared him very well. Somebody told me the other day that the Vincent/Richardson opening partnership had one of the longer runs for NZ cricket for the past few years does anybody have any stats to prove/disprove that?

 

[Mingster]

Is Ross Taylor any good?

Rob Nicol has been inconsistant in the SS.

Ross Taylor is in superb form for CD, and scored a run-a-ball 80* to win a game and just scored another 50 a few games back.

Nicol has failed to reproduce the goods as last season and has scored his runs painfully slow this season.

 

[Pratters]

'If' they make Fleming open then even though he has the mind-set of a number 3 the very very shaky NZ top order over the last 5-6 years has prepared him very well.

I thought the same oif Dravid. Didnt exactly work out that way, did it?

 

[Mingster]

We arent the best team but most teams will make make ups similar to ours.

Not really.

Our side isn't.

Auckland
1 Horne
2Howell
3 Vincent/McIntosh
4 Nicol
5 Barnes (batting allrounder)
6 Canning/Hitchcock
7 Mills
8 Adams
9 Young
10 Walker
11 Walmsley
.......

And Canning has never batted at 4 or 5 this season.

Canterbury don't play your 'bits and pieces lineup' either with the Black Caps or without:

1 Papps +
2 Stewart
3 Fulton
4 Broom/McMillan
5 Stead/Cairns (specialist batsmen at domestic level)
6 Harris (genuine allrounder at domestic level)
7 Wiseman/McCullum + (bowling allrounder and specialist batsman at domestic level)

And neither do Central Districts either...

1 Spearman
2 How
3 Sinclair
4 Taylor
5 Ryder
6 Oram (genuine allrounder at domestic level)
7 Sulzberger (genuine allrounder at domestic level)
8 Griggs +

Well Northern wouldn't either if they have their Black Caps back...

1 J Marshall
2 Horsley
3 H Marshall
4 Robinson
5 Styris
6 Vettori (137*)
7 Yovich (bowling allrounder but isn't that bad)
8 R Hart +

Even if ND have their weakened lineup:

Marshall
Horsley
Marshall
M Hart (has transformed himself into a batsman and has a 200 to his name)
Robinson
Yovich
R Hart
4 bowlers

They have their 5 specialist bowlers and and an allrounder in Matt Hart as their 6th option. That's a usual make-up of an ODI side so Yovich batting at 6 isn't actually that bad when you consider that they are actually playing 5 specialist batsmen.

Wellington with Fleming back or without still play 5 specialist batsmen:

1 Nevin
2 Donaldson/ Fleming
3 Jones
4 Bell
5 Parlanes (either one)
6 Franklin (genuine allrounder at domestic level these days, but is handy at 6, no doubt about that)
7 Walker (bowling allrounder, has batted very well this season with 2 50's already)
8 Woodcock (genuine allrounder, bats at 4 in 4-day game)
9 Turner
10 Gillespie
11 Mayu Pasupati

You really need to play 5 bat + keeper and 5 bowlers at this level, and one of the 5 bat needs to bowl as well to give side a genuine 6th option.

 

[marc71178]

To be honest South Africa dont stand a chance in tests ... My view

Based on what?

They certainly have a lot better individuals than NZ

 

[marc71178]

Nah mate, he's talking about the fact that Rudolph & Graeme Smith will play Vettori easily.

I think he was taking the mickey out of the fact that those 2 are the current South African Spinners!

 

[marc71178]

Not really considering M.Waugh, S.Ganguly and others have also opened in one dayers but couldnt open in tests for toffees.

But they open in a much different style to Fleming - they go out to attack.

 

[anzac]

Fair call Kent, yeah there's no doubt that the pitches aren't the best here in New Zealand.

Maybe they should be looking to play more matches down in Alexandra or something? lol

supports prior comments that NZ pitches have tended to encourage the whirlwind approach to batting as opposed to the more traditional form..........

 

[Pratters]

But they open in a much different style to Fleming - they go out to attack.

but Dravid isnt attacking, didnt succeed in tests as opener.

 

[anzac]

Not really.

Our side isn't.

Auckland
1 Horne
2Howell
3 Vincent/McIntosh
4 Nicol
5 Barnes (batting allrounder)
6 Canning/Hitchcock
7 Mills
8 Adams
9 Young
10 Walker
11 Walmsley
.......

And Canning has never batted at 4 or 5 this season.

Canterbury don't play your 'bits and pieces lineup' either with the Black Caps or without:

1 Papps +
2 Stewart
3 Fulton
4 Broom/McMillan
5 Stead/Cairns (specialist batsmen at domestic level)
6 Harris (genuine allrounder at domestic level)
7 Wiseman/McCullum + (bowling allrounder and specialist batsman at domestic level)

And neither do Central Districts either...

1 Spearman
2 How
3 Sinclair
4 Taylor
5 Ryder
6 Oram (genuine allrounder at domestic level)
7 Sulzberger (genuine allrounder at domestic level)
8 Griggs +

Well Northern wouldn't either if they have their Black Caps back...

1 J Marshall
2 Horsley
3 H Marshall
4 Robinson
5 Styris
6 Vettori (137*)
7 Yovich (bowling allrounder but isn't that bad)
8 R Hart +

Even if ND have their weakened lineup:

Marshall
Horsley
Marshall
M Hart (has transformed himself into a batsman and has a 200 to his name)
Robinson
Yovich
R Hart
4 bowlers

They have their 5 specialist bowlers and and an allrounder in Matt Hart as their 6th option. That's a usual make-up of an ODI side so Yovich batting at 6 isn't actually that bad when you consider that they are actually playing 5 specialist batsmen.

Wellington with Fleming back or without still play 5 specialist batsmen:

1 Nevin
2 Donaldson/ Fleming
3 Jones
4 Bell
5 Parlanes (either one)
6 Franklin (genuine allrounder at domestic level these days, but is handy at 6, no doubt about that)
7 Walker (bowling allrounder, has batted very well this season with 2 50's already)
8 Woodcock (genuine allrounder, bats at 4 in 4-day game)
9 Turner
10 Gillespie
11 Mayu Pasupati

You really need to play 5 bat + keeper and 5 bowlers at this level, and one of the 5 bat needs to bowl as well to give side a genuine 6th option.

are those lineups from this season???? as they look more 'normal' than some I've seen in the past with the likes of Harris, Styris, Vettori all promoted up the order into the top 4.....

but you do have a valid point re the typical limited overs lineup - it just gripes me to see so many players at 6 - 8 who do not play in that position in the longer game and that many seem to be coming from a bowling background as opposed to a batting one

I thought that Limited Overs games were for the batsmen - not the bowlers - if you look at the Indian & Aussie ODI teams they have longer specialist batting lineups & have batting allrounders in those positions, whereas NZ teams at State & National levels seem to have gone the other way with bowling backgrounds tending to dominate...........

 

[anzac]

one way to look at the Aussie ODI team is as follows:

start with you Test team - 7 batsmen including your 'keeper & at least 1 of whom is a batting allrounder, followed by 4 specialist bowlers being 3 seamers and 1 spin.

now promote your 'keeper to open to accelerate your innings from the start and to also make a spot available in the lower order for a bowling allrounder eg Harvey.

so you now have your 5th bowler, with allready having a spot in your batting lineup for a batting allrounder from the test side as your 6th option. Next step is to exchange your Test batting No6 who doesn't bowl, for another batsman who does eg Symonds - you now have your 7th bowling option - 4 specialist bowlers, 2 batting allrounders and 1 bowling allrounder..........

but the bowling background only equates to 5 spots in the lineup.....the rest being proven batsmen at State & International levels with usually 5 (if Lehman is fit) directly from the Test lineup........

you have 1 batsman change his position from the Test team, and generally only 2 other players coming into the side at 6 & 7, depending on injuries etc..........

they follow the KISS principle well don't they.........

now do the same exercise for the NZ side!!!!!!!!!