English Off-Spin - Where does Graeme Swann rate?

[vcs]

And there have been how many great off spin bowlers lately? Australia have let the likes of Vettori, Kumble, and if you go far back enough Saqlain get on top of them at some point during various home series. I think their ability to face spin gets seriously exaggerated.

I know he never spun it much, but this is the first time I've seen him accused of spinning it the other way than he intended...

 

[aussie]

Very hard to judge a cricketer against his contemporaries until you have witnessed a career from start till end. Swann is currently on track to be regarded as one of England's greatest post WW2 spinners, but two years of really solid form isn't enough to really judge a cricketer.

What Swann has done thus far is a remarkable achievement and worthy of many a praise. Did anyone during the early to mid 2000's ever expect the solid county spinner plying his trade for Nottinghamshire and Northamptonshire to ever become one of the leading bowlers in the world? He never appeared to be the superior option to the likes of Batty, Keedy and Brown. It would take a brave cricket pundit to predict the off-spinner with a first class average in the mid 30's would take over 100 test wickets inside 2 years at a mid 20's average.

Well IMO he always was. Duncan Fletcher sort of banished him from his plans after his ODI debut vs SA 99/00, I reckon Swann could have been in the ODI set-up at least since 2005.

But yea him along with Batty, Keedy, Brown & Dawson for test matches all came across as county trundlers. Swann is unique case given he has risen up out of the medicority of county cricket & just taken to international cricket like a duck to water.

Just a mention for Pat Pocock who many judges rated a better bowler than Illingworth but who was left out for most of his early-70s peak because of Illingworth being both superior batsman and captain. Illy's reign from '69-73 also resulted in Fred Titmus being left out of the side.

Yea i've read this about Pocock, wanted to included him, but given he didn't play much test during his peak to be tested i decided not to.

Agreed,the thing is even if his career nosedives he is still easily the best off spinner we have had in the last 30 years,not that Emburey,Croft and Such were any good anyway so there isn't much competition.

Croft was very good on turning pitches actually. See his bowling in Sri Lanka 200. Before last winter vs SA i would have rated Croft ahead of Swann.

Despite the above mentioned all bowling on uncovered wickets, Swann's average is currently better and his strike-rate is exponentially better than Illy, Allen, Titmus & co. Not that figures are everything of course, but they're a start. Against that, the umpires recent willingness to give lbw's has helped him enormously, as has the introduction of UDRS.

I'd argue that his performances to data are the best by an English spinner that I've seen.

Didn't you see most of Underwood's career live?.

Also watching old clips of Allen, Titmus, Illy bowl - Swann is definately a bigger turner of the ball for sure than them. But if you put all of them to bowl on a proper turner in the sub-continent/SCG like surface etc, i sort of feel they would be equally effective.

 

[Spark]

And there have been how many great off spin bowlers lately? Australia have let the likes of Vettori, Kumble, and if you go far back enough Saqlain get on top of them at some point during various home series. I think their ability to face spin gets seriously exaggerated.

Which brings their averages down to 40, 37 (plus, we're talking offies here) and 34 respectively. Yes they do well on occasion but much less often than in other parts of the world.

On the other hand, Murali averages 75 and Harbhajan (who we KNOW can get Australian batsmen out with ease in the right conditions) 73.

 

[aussie]

Johnnie Clay

Special mention to this bloke. Who according the John Arlott probably would have played more test for England if he didn't just want to play for county Glamorgan.

 

[tooextracool]

I know he never spun it much, but this is the first time I've seen him accused of spinning it the other way than he intended...

No one said hes an off spinner but as Richard has argued at lengths about, he's essentially a finger spinner given the manner in which he bowls. The point is that various finger spinners have had good series in Australia.

 

[Spark]

No one said hes an off spinner but as Richard has argued at lengths about, he's essentially a finger spinner given the manner in which he bowls. The point is that various finger spinners have had good series in Australia.

Right but the good spells are uncommon enough that overall they still do pretty mediocre at best (Saqlain has actually done excellently in comparison to his contemporaries).

 

[tooextracool]

Which brings their averages down to 40, 37 (plus, we're talking offies here) and 34 respectively. Yes they do well on occasion but much less often than in other parts of the world.

On the other hand, Murali averages 75 and Harbhajan (who we KNOW can get Australian batsmen out with ease in the right conditions) 73.

I would give more credit to any spinner that takes wickets against India and SL in the subcontinent than to someone who takes wickets in Australia. Reason being that in Australia, pitches are in general unhelpful so its not exactly a crime if you dont take very wickets while bowling on pitches that dont offer any assistance for anyone. In the subcontinent on the other hand, its different because the challenge involves bowling against pros against spin with somewhat favorable conditions. I think failure in the subcontinent is really what separates the boys from the men in this category.

 

[Spark]

I would give more credit to any spinner that takes wickets against India and SL in the subcontinent than to someone who takes wickets in Australia. Reason being that in Australia, pitches are in general unhelpful so its not exactly a crime if you dont take very wickets while bowling on pitches that dont offer any assistance for anyone. In the subcontinent on the other hand, its different because the challenge involves bowling against pros against spin with somewhat favorable conditions. I think failure in the subcontinent is really what separates the boys from the men in this category.

But that's my point... because the pitches offer so little, offspinners in Australia do comparatively worse and are hence less effective overall in comparison to the pace bowlers. Do I expect them to average 25, 30, take 25 wickets in a 5-test series with regularity? Of course not for that reason. But that doesn't hide the fact that one of your bowling options is being somewhat nullified and there is nothing you can do about it.

EDIT: I think you meant the reverse with your first sentence, you kind of imply the opposite in that wickets in Australia are easier to come by...

EDIT EDIT: Oh now I get your point. Never mind.

EDIT^3: Will agree that we're useless with the exception of Clarke and in-form Ponting against spin of any sort of quality though.

 

[wpdavid]

I'd argue that his performances to data are the best by an English spinner that I've seen.

Didn't you see most of Underwood's career live?.

Only from 1971 onwards, so I missed the famous Oval match in 1968 and the 1969 series when he cleaned up against weak opponents. Obviously Underwood was lethal on certain surfaces - I watched Leeds in 1972 and Lord's in 1974. But at the time, I always felt he was fairly toothless in normal conditions. England's selectors seemed to agree, as he barely got a look in at times. Given that he finished with almost 300 wickets, I'm probably being unfair, but there you go.

 

[aussie]

Only from 1971 onwards, so I missed the famous Oval match in 1968 and the 1969 series when he cleaned up against weak opponents. Obviously Underwood was lethal on certain surfaces - I watched Leeds in 1972 and Lord's in 1974. But at the time, I always felt he was fairly toothless in normal conditions. England's selectors seemed to agree, as he barely got a look in at times. Given that he finished with almost 300 wickets, I'm probably being unfair, but there you go.

Ha well yea i think you are slightly. Although i agree when uncovered wickets based disappeared for the majority of the 70s, he lost some teeth in his effectiveness. But he took 5 wicket hauls on flat Adelaide 1975 & did well in the sub-continent too. Was if ever dropped?, since when you say "the selectors barely gave him a look in at times", i dont recall any instances of him not playing for ENG.

Deadly Dereck has a strong case for being our greatest ever spinner. Swann although on a roll can't compare with him.

 

[Manee]

Imo, Swann's only negative has been that he has not yet proved his longevity over a long career. In the games that he has played, he has performed as well, if not better, than any orthodox off spinner could be expected to have performed.