Dale Steyn -Greatest of All Time

[subshakerz]

To be clear, I am not saying Steyn failed against England. He bowled some important spells and had some tough wickets to bowl on. I would likely take his record against England over Waqar or Wasim who averaged a bit less. It is only an underperformance compared to the other top 5 contenders who dominated England.

 

[DriveClub]

In the 90s most of the fast bowlers feasted against tin pot English batsmen. Steyn played against arguably their strongest team in decades in 2004 and 2012? Can’t remember other tours

 

[subshakerz]

In the 90s most of the fast bowlers feasted against tin pot English batsmen. Steyn played against arguably their strongest team in decades in 2004 and 2012? Can’t remember other tours

Toured in 2008 and 2012. Played at home in 2004 and 2010.

No doubt he faced stronger English batting lineups but then Imran and Hadlee succeeded against WI teams that were far ahead of the WI sides he faced so that variability will always be there. Averaging 31 in 12 tests overall and 5 in England is a bit on the steep side for me even considering the tougher conditions. He played on some roads and strong batting lineups in India but that didnt stop him from doing excellent there.

 

[CricAddict]

You were the one so sure about me being anti-India. Glad you've seen the light.

I did say 'to an extent'. You sure are anti-India but your quest for continuous arguments is actually even more annoying, at least to me

 

[srbhkshk]

Averaging 31 in 12 tests overall and 5 in England is a bit on the steep side for me even considering the tougher conditions. He played on some roads and strong batting lineups in India but that didnt stop him from doing excellent there.

If only he had failed in India - subs would rate him higher.

 

[OverratedSanity]

In the 90s most of the fast bowlers feasted against tin pot English batsmen. Steyn played against arguably their strongest team in decades in 2004 and 2012? Can’t remember other tours

Factos

The English, Indian, Sri Lankan, NZ, Pak lineups were all either massively better or atleast marginally better than the ones 80s/90s ATG pacers bowled to. Steyn absolutely wasn't quite as great in those handful of matches he played in England as he was most other places. But Marshall, hadlee, Ambrose, McGrath all filled their boots beating up some atrocious England lineups so I'm not sure I'd hold their records there as some litmus test for great fast bowlers. McGrath atleast did his thing in the mid 2000s as well when England improved.

But also completely inconsequential. Playing India in India might be a unique challenge. Playing India in West Indies isn't. This arbitrary slice of his career has no importance in rating Ambrose for mine.

Ambrose's poor record against India is two series. One when he was pretty young, which doesn't say much. The second one, though was in 1997. That series for the most part, had very slow pitches and Ambrose was reduced to a holding bowler . Considering he never toured India where he would be more likely to encounter those slower pitches to Indian batsmen who relish them, can you honestly still say that his record vs India can be entirely ignored? It's an arbitrary slice, sure, but I don't think it's any less arbitrary than most of the other slices we use especially considering he barely toured the subcontinent.

 

[OverratedSanity]

No doubt he faced stronger English batting lineups but then Imran and Hadlee succeeded against WI teams that were far ahead of the WI sides he faced so that variability will always be there. Averaging 31 in 12 tests overall and 5 in England is a bit on the steep side for me even considering the tougher conditions.

Anderson's record in those 5 matches:



Broad's record in those 5 matches:



Now, obviously they were bowling to a different lineup which makes a 1-to-1 comparison unfair. However, if Steyn takes basically as many wickets as those two put together, at a significantly better average and strike rate, then there is something about the batting conditions that you're probably understating. Broad and Anderson are two of the deadliest bowlers in English conditions of the last 50 years and their struggles in those series were orders of magnitudes worse than Steyn's.

Steyn for sure had some difficulty controlling the duke's swing at times, but to use this dubious sample alone as some kind of proof that he's not good enough to be top 5 is a flimsy point. You can use the fact that he had a higher Er against him if you want, but this one, nah, it's dumb.

 

[Coronis]

Anderson's record in those 5 matches:

View attachment 33607

Broad's record in those 5 matches:

View attachment 33606

Now, obviously they were bowling to a different lineup which makes a 1-to-1 comparison unfair. However, if Steyn takes basically as many wickets as those two put together, at a significantly better average and strike rate, then there is something about the batting conditions that you're probably understating. Broad and Anderson are two of the deadliest bowlers in English conditions of the last 50 years and their struggles in those series were orders of magnitudes worse than Steyn's.

Steyn for sure had some difficulty controlling the duke's swing at times, but to use this dubious sample alone as some kind of proof that he's not good enough to be top 5 is a flimsy point. You can use the fact that he had a higher Er against him if you want, but this one, nah, it's dumb.

Doesn’t count because those tests were rare non cloudy ones.

 

[ankitj]

Ambrose's poor record against India is two series. One when he was pretty young, which doesn't say much. The second one, though was in 1997. That series for the most part, had very slow pitches and Ambrose was reduced to a holding bowler for the most part. Considering he never toured India where he would be more likely to encounter those slower pitches to Indian batsmen who relish them, can you honestly still say that his record vs India can be entirely ignored? It's an arbitrary slice, sure, but I don't think it's any less arbitrary than most of the other slices we use especially considering he barely toured the subcontinent.

Is that the only time he encountered slow pitches? If yes, sample size too small to extrapolate from.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Is that the only time he encountered slow pitches? If yes, sample size too small to extrapolate from.

It's probably the only time he encountered slow pitches with Indian batsmen to bowl to. Which is what he would've had to face if he toured India. Which he never did. Hmmmmm ? ??

 

[honestbharani]

TBF, the Windies did play in Mohali in 1994 which was as much of a green mamba as any around the world at that time and he missed out on that.

 

[OverratedSanity]

TBF, the Windies did play in Mohali in 1994 which was as much of a green mamba as any around the world at that time and he missed out on that.

True. Tbh analysis by checklist by way of classification of pitch type is much more valid than just 'country' stats. Unfortunately not statsguru-able.

 

[subshakerz]

Anderson's record in those 5 matches:

View attachment 33607

Broad's record in those 5 matches:

View attachment 33606

Now, obviously they were bowling to a different lineup which makes a 1-to-1 comparison unfair. However, if Steyn takes basically as many wickets as those two put together, at a significantly better average and strike rate, then there is something about the batting conditions that you're probably understating. Broad and Anderson are two of the deadliest bowlers in English conditions of the last 50 years and their struggles in those series were orders of magnitudes worse than Steyn's.

Steyn for sure had some difficulty controlling the duke's swing at times, but to use this dubious sample alone as some kind of proof that he's not good enough to be top 5 is a flimsy point. You can use the fact that he had a higher Er against him if you want, but this one, nah, it's dumb.

Again, we are comparing him to the top pacers ever. So the question is whether his record in and against England a minor blemish or not.

You provided evidence that he did relatively well all things considered but it was still below top tier ATG standards. Especially if you consider all 12 tests overall against England.

Btw I am fairly confident any of Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose and Imran would end up with better figures than Steyn if they played those series.