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Choose one attack

Choose one

  • Total voters
    27
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's very hard for me to differentiate.

But I think in practice, the first attack will be more deadly on most surfaces. Wasim is a better third seamer option than Steyn or Hadlee.

Lillee and Marshall are roughly as challenging with the new ball as Hadlee and McGrath. But I think on flat surfaces they will have the pace to still eek out wickets.

Warne is better than Murali so that seals it.
 
shortpitched713

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
It's very hard for me to differentiate.

But I think in practice, the first attack will be more deadly on most surfaces. Wasim is a better third seamer option than Steyn or Hadlee.

Lillee and Marshall are roughly as challenging with the new ball as Hadlee and McGrath. But I think on flat surfaces they will have the pace to still eek out wickets.

Warne is better than Murali so that seals it.
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Okay, I respect your approach to this, as being a bit more qualitatively focused.

I just think the bottom 4 is just a greater assembly of ability (even by CW consensus), which kind of is hidden by the order of listing.

CW consensus is:

Marshall equal or extremely close with McGrath

Warne equal or extremely close with Murali

Lillee/Akram vs Hadlee/Steyn on the other hand would be an easy, easy vote for the latter in CW. So I'm really finding the voting pattern to be hard to justify if only on that basis.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
shortpitched713 said:
Okay, I respect your approach to this, as being a bit more qualitatively focused.

I just think the bottom 4 is just a greater assembly of ability (even by CW consensus), which kind of is hidden by the order of listing.

CW consensus is:

Marshall equal or extremely close with McGrath

Warne equal or extremely close with Murali

Lillee/Akram vs Hadlee/Steyn on the other hand would be an easy, easy vote for the latter in CW. So I'm really finding the voting pattern to be hard to justify if only on that basis.
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Don't give me ranking explain based on actual bowling skills how the second attack is superior.

The big advantage of the first four is raw pace of Marshall and Lillee, and Wasim to a lesser extent.

Who is going to have the new ball between Steyn and Hadlee?

If it's Steyn, Hadlee without the new ball to me is not quite the same threat but will do fairly well. But Hadlee to me is superior with the new ball.

Steyn without new ball is also getting hammered IMO until the ball is old enough for him to reverse.

Wasim without new ball to me is still very effective. He is the best of these all with reverse.

I back the first attack on most surfaces.
 
R

reyrey

First Class Debutant
I'll go for Warne and Co, but there really isn't much separating these attacks.

I'd like to see a left arm pacer with Murali, just so he's got some guaranteed footmarks to work with. Slight advantage goes to Warne and co
 
DrWolverine

DrWolverine

International Vice-Captain
I think someone like Wasim Akram is essential in any all-time bowling attack because he brings something completely different. Being a left arm fast bowler, he changes the angle, the trajectory, and the whole dynamic of an over. Most great attacks are dominated by right armers, so a bowler like Akram breaks that pattern. Add to that his mastery of swing, especially reverse swing and he becomes a nightmare for any batting lineup. Even though individually team 2 is better, Akram brings the variety and makes the first team look more complete.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
DrWolverine said:
I think someone like Wasim Akram is essential in any all-time bowling attack because he brings something completely different. Being a left arm fast bowler, he changes the angle, the trajectory, and the whole dynamic of an over. Most great attacks are dominated by right armers, so a bowler like Akram breaks that pattern. Add to that his mastery of swing, especially reverse swing and he becomes a nightmare for any batting lineup. Even though individually team 2 is better, Akram brings the variety and makes the first team look more complete.
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Yeah I slightly disagree.

The left armer angle variety is overstated and frankly that variety is already provided by Sobers who will be the seamer or spinner who bowls between the others to give them a break without much of a drop down in quality.

The main issue is who is the best 3rd seamer and what are the qualities you are looking for?

I think you need someone who can provide control and keep thing tight. Someone who can use the old ball best. And someone with a bowling style in contrast to the first two.

I think Wasim is superior to either Hadlee and Steyn in this role. Hadlee would provide control but will be somewhat neutered without the new ball and you lose his value there. He can't do much with the old ball (but then Steyn can come later, Hadlees job may be too keep things tight until the ball is roughed up enough).

Steyn loses his sting without the new ball and will be milked more effectively for runs until the ball is old enough for him to use. He isn't a great third seamer choice.
 
DrWolverine

DrWolverine

International Vice-Captain
subshakerz said:
The left armer angle variety is overstated and frankly that variety is already provided by Sobers who will be the seamer or spinner who bowls between the others to give them a break without much of a drop down in quality.
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I get what you’re saying but it undersells what Akram brings to the table. Gary Sobers offers options, yes but he was never operating at the same level as a genuine fast bowler. One is just a supporting act while the other is a frontline bowler can rip games open with his skill.


Wasim was world class with the new ball and even more dangerous when the ball got old. He is not there just to tick a variety box.That left arm angle might sound like a small thing but in the middle of a game it forces the batter to change everything. It forces batters to rethink their footwork, shot selection, even their guard.And when that comes with late swing at high pace it becomes a nightmare to the opposition team.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
DrWolverine said:
I get what you’re saying but it undersells what Akram brings to the table. Gary Sobers offers options, yes but he was never operating at the same level as a genuine fast bowler. One is just a supporting act while the other is a frontline bowler can rip games open with his skill.


Wasim was world class with the new ball and even more dangerous when the ball got old. He is not there just to tick a variety box.That left arm angle might sound like a small thing but in the middle of a game it forces the batter to change everything. It forces batters to rethink their footwork, shot selection, even their guard.And when that comes with late swing at high pace it becomes a nightmare to the opposition team.
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Left arm variety to me matters less than the actual bowling skill in keeping things tight and getting wickets. It's like saying having a left hand right hand opening bat combo is more helpful.

I'm not saying that it doesn't help, but having Sobers already in the attack minimizes that particular advantage and doesn't necessitate a left arm frontline option.

I prefer Wasim over Hadlee and Steyn due to his old ball skills. Wasim is not getting the new ball over Lillee and Marshall.
 
DrWolverine

DrWolverine

International Vice-Captain
I agree with most of that. Bowling skill should always come first and left arm variety alone is not a strong enough reason for selection. But I do not agree with the view that Gary Sobers’ presence can replace a specialist left arm fast bowler and that too of Akram’s calibre.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
DrWolverine said:
I agree with most of that. Bowling skill should always come first and left arm variety alone is not a strong enough reason for selection. But I do not agree with the view that Gary Sobers’ presence can replace a specialist left arm fast bowler and that too of Akram’s calibre.
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The big advantage for left armers is to have the pitch scuffed for spinners. But that would work for Murali more than Warne.
 
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