Bring in Collingwood for Giles?

[sledger]

that is true.

 

[Hanuma]

i agree with collingwood coming in for giles.

clearly sub world class spin isnt legitimate against the aussies.....fine it may help rotate the fast bowlers, but i dont think it will help stop them making runs.

 

[sledger]

and a medium pacer will ?

 

[Hanuma]

yes....they will score less of collie than they will of giles.

 

[sledger]

i doubt that to be honest, in the odis collingwood goes for a lot more runs and gets fewer wickets than giles does, often doesnt contribute that much more with the bat to be honest, although that would be different in tests im sure.....but all the same, no need to drop giles now.

 

[Hanuma]

im not so sure.
collingwood is a far superior batter and in terms of bowling he isnt too far apart.

+ pietersen apparently WANTS to bowl off spin....so may as well test him out.

 

[Shane Warne]

yes....they will score less of collie than they will of giles.

Assinine comment.

It is by no means certain. I could see Collingwood's medium pace dibbly dobbler's getting treated with equal distain.

 

[marc71178]

perhaps not, but they do have flintoff who would get in the side on his bowling alone, after that vaughn, bell, and even trescothick or pietersen can fill in a few overs.

But in this situation, Flintoff is already playing as a bowler.

And none of the 4 you've mentioned particularly strike me as filling in options.

 

[Barney Rubble]

+ pietersen apparently WANTS to bowl off spin....so may as well test him out.

Where'd you hear that? I heard he'd lost all confidence in his bowling, to the extent that he doesn't see himself ever taking another first-class wicket!

 

[Richard]

why richard???

Because I feel Bell is a better player than Pietersen.
And a single Test-match doesn't change that view.
Note that I didn't say I feel Pietersen is more likely to be dropped than Bell.

 

[Richard]

I agree - but may I ask why you keep Jones at 7 and demote Flintoff all the way to 8? Some of Freddie's best performances with the bat for England have come at 7, and I think it's a little harsh to chuck him down in the same batting position as the likes of Shane Warne and Irfan Pathan.

Simple.
Flintoff's a hitter, Jones is a batsman - even if Geraint does forget that quite often.
Isn't it every bit as much of an insult - more so, in fact - to Jones to put him in the Warne\Pathan position?
Haven't you noticed how easily Australia have sorted-out Flintoff in both Tests and ODIs, while they've had a little more difficulty with Jones (even in ODIs where Jones can't bat to save his life).

 

[Richard]

Ian Bell is a more than capable medium-pacer; Vaughany's off-breaks are tidy and under-used (although not as good as some make them out to be); Tresco's good for the odd over here and there, and KP used to be a fully-fledged all-rounder - we certainly have a few capable of filling in. In fact, the only member of the team you could say will categorically never be bowling is Strauss (other than Geraint Jones of course!), and even he got an over against Zimbabwe last year!

Which said rather more about Zimbabwe than about him.

 

[Swervy]

Simple.
Flintoff's a hitter, Jones is a batsman - even if Geraint does forget that quite often.
Isn't it every bit as much of an insult - more so, in fact - to Jones to put him in the Warne\Pathan position?
Haven't you noticed how easily Australia have sorted-out Flintoff in both Tests and ODIs, while they've had a little more difficulty with Jones (even in ODIs where Jones can't bat to save his life).

so you make the judgement that Flintoff has been sorted out in tests by Australia based on one test, where Flintoff got bowled by an impossible ball, and got out in the second playing a rash shot in the middle of a truely mesmerising spell by Warne.

maybe we can tell in a couple of tests time whether Flintoff really has been sorted out by the Aussie

 

[Swervy]

I see Collingwood has scored yet another 100.. thats 5 in 8 matches now.

 

[Richard]

Indeed... putting yourself in the frame in the best possible way (the only possible way, in fact)...

 

[Richard]

so you make the judgement that Flintoff has been sorted out in tests by Australia based on one test, where Flintoff got bowled by an impossible ball, and got out in the second playing a rash shot in the middle of a truely mesmerising spell by Warne.

maybe we can tell in a couple of tests time whether Flintoff really has been sorted out by the Aussie

OK, OK, bit premature - but there's no doubt they feel they have and I maintain that I'd not be surprised if he averaged less than 20 this series.
Of course he's likely to get more than he did at any point at Lord's in probably all the remaining games.
But South Africa sorted him out pretty well last winter too (ironically his best score came in the game where their attack was strongest).

 

[tooextracool]

perhaps not, but they do have flintoff who would get in the side on his bowling alone, after that vaughn, bell, and even trescothick or pietersen can fill in a few overs.

all 4 would only make things worse if they were given the ball. personally i wouldnt recommend any changes for the next test, see how it goes from there and then if we continue to get hammered ring in the changes. theres no other option really.

 

[tooextracool]

Flintoff's a hitter, Jones is a batsman - even if Geraint does forget that quite often.
Isn't it every bit as much of an insult - more so, in fact - to Jones to put him in the Warne\Pathan position?
Haven't you noticed how easily Australia have sorted-out Flintoff in both Tests and ODIs, while they've had a little more difficulty with Jones (even in ODIs where Jones can't bat to save his life).

flintoff is a hitter, complete rubbish.
and if you think that the aussies sorted him out in the tests and ODIs when most of the dismissals either had to do with being careless strokeplay and unplayable floor balls, then you are obviously out of your mind.

 

[tooextracool]

why richard???

while i dont rate bell over pietersen who has easily the best temperament ive seen for a very very long time, i think theres been way too much criticism of bell after that 1st test. you can hardly blame him for getting out to mcgrath and while his dismissal to warne was stupid, he still was the only one who had the right idea about trying to go after warne, instead of letting warne get on top. im still not convinced about how good he is against spin, because he doesnt look very comfortable when he doesnt get to the pitch of the ball, but i think he deserves more than one poor test.

 

[Top_Cat]

while his dismissal to warne was stupid

See I disagree with this. Everyone's saying how Warnie has him under his thumb, etc. but that ball, whilst not played as well as it could have been, foxed Bell because it wasn't the straight one he didn't pick; it was the leg-spinner. Only problem? It didn't turn. On an uneven pitch, one must allow for this possibility and that comes with experience and considering how much Warnie was turning the ball in the Lords Test (more than he has in ages, I reckon), to get one which fizzed and ripped BUT didn't turn, pretty unlucky in my book.

No, there's no way Bell should be dropped after the first Test. He's a classy player and he'll have his day. He was just unlucky enough to be, in both innings, smack-bang in the middle of great spells from two of the best bowlers of all time. I doubt there'd have been a single player of less than 10 Tests experience who would have been able to absorb that.

all 4 would only make things worse if they were given the ball. personally i wouldnt recommend any changes for the next test, see how it goes from there and then if we continue to get hammered ring in the changes. theres no other option really.

Yep agree. Have faith in the current line-up and I reckon they'll eventually starting winning. They're far too individually good to not and it's a matter of time before they click as a team.