Botham vs Jadeja (batting)

[Randomfan]

Batting lower or higher in different teams is not just about how good you are.

Botham batting higher had a lot to do with ,





Jadeja batting lower had a lot to do with,

 

[Rob Wesley]

Those figures can be misleading because I don't think he makes the top 6 until 2022 when he showed the ability to stay longer at the crease, the mark of a test quality specialist.

Reckon Jadeja would have batted at 6 regularly since 2019 if India didn’t had a keeper of batting calibre as good as Rishabh Pant. That 2019 WC semi final knock did a lot of wonders in terms of his own confidence in batting and because tests matches allows you to take your time and score runs, it became his best format by far.

 

[subshakerz]

Reckon Jadeja would have batted at 6 regularly since 2019 if India didn’t had a keeper of batting calibre as good as Rishabh Pant. That 2019 WC semi final knock did a lot of wonders in terms of his own confidence in batting and because tests matches allows you to take your time and score runs, it became his best format by far.

Possible. I mark his change with the 175* against SL.

 

[subshakerz]

Batting lower or higher in different teams is not just about how good you are.

Botham batting higher had a lot to do with ,

View attachment 49240



Jadeja batting lower had a lot to do with,

View attachment 49241

Sorry but there is a relative sense of quality and Jadeja hadn't done anything until 2022 to suggest he could be an all conditions bat at 6

 

[Randomfan]

Do you reckon he got benefited via not outs too? Avg of 37 for someone with 5 tons in 85 tests is quite low.

Yes, Jadeja's average of 37 is due to not outs, but Jadeja scores 30 runs per inning. Botham was scoring not too higher despite batting higher many times. Botham was scoring 32 runs per inning. Given all else equal, batting higher should result in less not outs, more RPI. Since Jadeja has so many not outs with 30 rpi, it's not far fetched to imagine that he would score more runs before getting out.

Avg of 37 with 5 tons in 85 tests is not quitre low given batting position for a bowling all rounder. Only Gilly and Botham , just 2 batsmen in entire history have double digits ton counts when batting at 6 or lower where Jadeja has batted for his entire career. Jadeja has 7 scores of 80-99 runs and botham has 2. Botham should get credit for scoring lots of tons.

It does not matter if batting average is 40 or 30. Now if batting average is 40 and you bat in 4-5 position most of the times then 5 tons are quite low.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, Jadeja's average of 37 is due to not outs, but Jadeja scores 30 runs per inning. Botham was scoring not too higher despite batting higher many times. Botham was scoring 32 runs per inning. Given all else equal, batting higher should result in less not outs, more RPI. Since Jadeja has so many not outs with 30 rpi, it's not far fetched to imagine that he would score more runs before getting out.

Avg of 37 with 5 tons in 85 tests is not quitre low given batting position for a bowling all rounder. Only Gilly and Botham , just 2 batsmen in entire history have double digits ton counts when batting at 6 or lower where Jadeja has batted for his entire career. Jadeja has 7 scores of 80-99 runs and botham has 2. Botham should get credit for scoring lots of tons.

It does not matter if batting average is 40 or 30. Now if batting average is 40 and you bat in 4-5 position most of the times then 5 tons are quite low.

Don't recall you making these arguments for Imran

 

[Randomfan]

Sorry but there is a relative sense of quality and Jadeja hadn't done anything until 2022 to suggest he could be an all conditions bat at 6

Jadeja 2016-2021 - 6 years 41 tests with avg 40+.

Home : 25 tests - Avg 45
Away : 15 tests - Avg 35

His away with more than 1 tests,

In Aus - Avg 43
In Eng - Avg 29
In SL - Avg 85
In WI - Avg 24

I wouldn't take avg of 45 in India lightly as well because surface was not always easy to bat.


I won't call it not doing anything. In absence of India having a good option for keeper batsman , Jadeja would have batted higher with far more frequency.

 

[Randomfan]

Don't recall you making these arguments for Imran

You mean not considering everything?

I will look at everything, but I will focus on how frequently you fail vs succeed when batting 6 or lower if other things puts in in the same range. IK and Jadeja are close in most metric, but success to failure rate of Jadeja is drasticallty higher so he trumps IK for me. Botham has ton counts going for me, which IK did not have.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja 2016-2021 - 6 years 41 tests with avg 40+.

Home : 25 tests - Avg 45
Away : 15 tests - Avg 35

His away with more than 1 tests,

In Aus - Avg 43
In Eng - Avg 29
In SL - Avg 85
In WI - Avg 24

I wouldn't take avg of 45 in India lightly as well because surface was not always easy to bat.


I won't call it not doing anything. In absence of India having a good option for keeper batsman , Jadeja would have batted higher with far more frequency.

Australia and SL were a total of six tests with a single 50 in each two test series. It isn't what you are making it out to be.

It's not anything that would India to suddenly have confidence in him being a specialist bat.

 

[Randomfan]

Australia and SL were a total of six tests with a single 50 in each two test series. It isn't what you are making it out to be.

It's not anything that would India to suddenly have confidence in him being a specialist bat.

India played with 5 bowlers during Kohli's time. Add one keeper and that makes it 6 with 5 specialist batsmen.

Team wasn't playing with 6 specialist bat. 6th spot was mostly occupied by all rounders or keeper-batsman. India just happen to have better keeper-batsmen during that time.

 

[Randomfan]

Here is 2016-2021 where you are saying Jadeja did not do anything to suggest he can bat at 6th spot,

All indian players with 20+ tests in the same period.

Only Pujara, Rahane and Kohli had more 50+ scores. I will focus on 50+ scores because Jadeja was batting 7 or lower in 34 tests out of 41. I would say , he had done enough to suggest that he can bat at 6. Avg of 40+ means, opposition is not able to get him out and he can bat for longer duration.

 

[subshakerz]

Here is 2016-2021 where you are saying Jadeja did not do anything to suggest he can bat at 6th spot,

All indian players with 20+ tests in the same period.

Only Pujara, Rahane and Kohli had more 50+ scores. I will focus on 50+ scores because Jadeja was batting 7 or lower in 34 tests out of 41. I would say , he had done enough to suggest that he can bat at 6. Avg of 40+ means, opposition is not able to get him out and he can bat for longer duration.

View attachment 49242

Ok I won't debate this further since we agree on the main point

 

[ma1978]

Well you agree Botham is better

Whether Botham is better or not is irrelevant to the fact that your arguments are idiotic

 

[ma1978]

And Jadeja is better, close debate in my mind but he has a better peak, better average and didn’ have the same blot as Botham had

 

[ma1978]

Sorry but there is a relative sense of quality and Jadeja hadn't done anything until 2022 to suggest he could be an all conditions bat at 6

Translation: I have an intuition and no analysis to back up my views

 

[Rob Wesley]

Here is 2016-2021 where you are saying Jadeja did not do anything to suggest he can bat at 6th spot,

All indian players with 20+ tests in the same period.

Only Pujara, Rahane and Kohli had more 50+ scores. I will focus on 50+ scores because Jadeja was batting 7 or lower in 34 tests out of 41. I would say , he had done enough to suggest that he can bat at 6. Avg of 40+ means, opposition is not able to get him out and he can bat for longer duration.

View attachment 49242

If you pick a period from 2018 onwards, he has
got balanced number of tests both home and away.

Total tests - 50, Home - 24, Away - 24

Runs- 2710, Batting Avg - 43, RPI - 35.6

These are comparable to prime years of Botham( 1977-1983) where he averaged 37 with bat.

 

[subshakerz]

Translation: I have an intuition and no analysis to back up my views

Actually that's pretty much your arguments (more like complaints)

 

[Line and Length]

When comparing very good or even great players, I tend to avoid over-scrutiny of negatives (eg Botham v WI) and look at two major factors - impact and peak. At his peak, Botham had a far greater impact as a batsman than other all-rounders being compared to him.
I can understand the need to judge a player on his entire career, but there are many factors contributing to troughs in a career. Sadly Botham's troughs resemble more of a chasm late in his career.

 

[Al Salvador]

That it fell by 2 points over 7 years??

Never replied to the fact Jadeja averages 22 more at 6. Also, you kinda ignored 1 place batting pos difference is very much for the available keeper. Jadeja will bat ahead of Knott, let alone Taylor. Botham won't of Dhoni, let alone Pant

Botham is easily better test batsman than Dhoni honestly. Dhoni scores barely 1 rpi more without ban in much much easier era to bat in much shorter career. They're not same class, Dhoni can never ever repeat Botham 1981 against DKL

 

[capt_Luffy]

Botham is easily better test batsman than Dhoni honestly. Dhoni scores barely 1 rpi more without ban in much much easier era to bat in much shorter career. They're not same class, Dhoni can never ever repeat Botham 1981 against DKL

Dhoni also averages 5 runs more and scores handsomely everywhere. Don't think Botham was a better batsman honestly. Easier era Don't think works that well given Botham averages 29 without the weakest team of his Era, which would be a weak bowling attack in any.