• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Between September 2001 and the day of this post...

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Sorry but Pollock has taken 400 wickets @ just over 20 in supposedly the most batting friendly era in history - if that's not an all-time great then no-one qualifies

Kumble's record (Warne and Murali aside) is sensational as well.

The problem with Richard's "logic" is that he attempts to demean the quality of the batsmen by making reference to bowling records

Well, try this on of size, in the 80s every man and his dog averaged under 30 with the ball

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...wling_average.html?class=1;id=198;type=decade

Whilst only 6 (including Taylor who owes his record to feasting on a totally incompetent Eng in '89) averaged over 50

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...wling_average.html?class=1;id=198;type=decade

That being the case, if one were to make the same deduction as Richard has re the 2000s, I could simply say "bowling wasnt great, rather batting was poor" and that is the problem with basing your entire analysis on stats

The reality is that the truth lies somewhere in between.
This is a sensational post, and highlights the problem with the stat-based view of cricket supported by a few people on this forum, like Richard and also a bit like C_C, before he left. Statistics are a perfectly reasonable tool in analysing the game, but they inherently lack context, which makes them useless if they are your only tool. A player who averages 10 with the ball in a competition of low quality is unlikely to be as good as a bowler who averages 30 in test cricket, but you can't gather that from their statistical records alone, and the argument that "bowlers today are bad because they have high averages" is no more valid than "batsmen today are good because they have high averages".
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
I hate Richard's "the bowler controls the game, not the batsman" BS

Can't we just agree that we need both batsmen and bowlers..
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
This is a sensational post
Sensationally bad, yes, and I highlighted why.
and highlights the problem with the stat-based view of cricket supported by a few people on this forum, like Richard and also a bit like C_C, before he left. Statistics are a perfectly reasonable tool in analysing the game, but they inherently lack context, which makes them useless if they are your only tool. A player who averages 10 with the ball in a competition of low quality is unlikely to be as good as a bowler who averages 30 in test cricket, but you can't gather that from their statistical records alone, and the argument that "bowlers today are bad because they have high averages" is no more valid than "batsmen today are good because they have high averages".
Do you honestly think I make the call purely on bowling-averages? Bowling-averages merely bear-out the fact that most bowling-attacks of the last 6 years have generally given-off an air of impotence. However, if I say "all bowling-attacks are clearly impotent of late it's easy to say "ah, you have no proof, it's all in the deceptive eye of the beholder". Hence, it's far more convincing to give some bowling-averages.

I cannot believe anyone would honestly look at the attacks of the last 6 years and not notice how roundly awful they've mostly been.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I hate Richard's "the bowler controls the game, not the batsman" BS

Can't we just agree that we need both batsmen and bowlers..
Eh? Where did I say we don't?

Is it not fairly straightforward, though, to notice that the bowler bowls the ball? The process which makes-up the game of cricket is started by the bowler - what type of ball he comes-out with dictates what happens next. The batsman can only play the ball delivered to him.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Eh? Where did I say we don't?

Is it not fairly straightforward, though, to notice that the bowler bowls the ball? The process which makes-up the game of cricket is started by the bowler - what type of ball he comes-out with dictates what happens next. The batsman can only play the ball delivered to him.
There is a big gap in logic here. What if it is a great ball but the batsman plays it very well? It is on the batsman's effort that turned it into a wicket/dot-ball into runs. Unless you think the only 'good' balls are those that take wickets or restrict runs (which is stupid too, although understandable), then you're missing out a whole lot here.

I don't want to engage in this with you, because I think for the umpteenth time your argument is non-sensical, I just wanted to put that in.
 

andruid

International Coach
Two issues i would like to raise for consideration, first of all that a bowler controls the game through being the one who bowls the deliveries and the batsman can only respond to what the bowler dowls out but acn a batsman pressure a bowler into bowling more in a certain way tus wresting control of a game.

Secondly perhaps if we looked at batting averages from the said date up to the day this post was put up, how many bats have managed a batting average of 40+? Perhaps thiswould hep in clarifying a few issues on whther or not batsmen have gotten better, pitches more batsman friendly or just plain bad bowling. We might find out that the post 2001 era has seen International cricket hijacked by a group of uber-batsmen spread around so as to make life increasingly difficult for bowlers all over the world
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There is a big gap in logic here. What if it is a great ball but the batsman plays it very well? It is on the batsman's effort that turned it into a wicket/dot-ball into runs. Unless you think the only 'good' balls are those that take wickets or restrict runs (which is stupid too, although understandable), then you're missing out a whole lot here.
There are certain balls no batsman has any realistic chance of playing.

There are also certain balls no batsman, unless he's playing an exceptionally unorthodox stroke (an extreme rarity in cricket of 4 or 5 days' duration) is ever going to score from.

Obviously, though, what is a decent ball to one batsman can be a poor one to another. The bowler is still bowling it though, and there's no batsman it's impossible to bowl a good ball to, whereas there is a ball that no batsman has a chance of playing.
 
Last edited:

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Two issues i would like to raise for consideration, first of all that a bowler controls the game through being the one who bowls the deliveries and the batsman can only respond to what the bowler dowls out but acn a batsman pressure a bowler into bowling more in a certain way tus wresting control of a game.
Bowlers don't have to feel under pressure, though - plenty of bowlers, quite the contrary in fact, relish such a challenge.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Sensationally bad, yes, and I highlighted why.

Do you honestly think I make the call purely on bowling-averages? Bowling-averages merely bear-out the fact that most bowling-attacks of the last 6 years have generally given-off an air of impotence. However, if I say "all bowling-attacks are clearly impotent of late it's easy to say "ah, you have no proof, it's all in the deceptive eye of the beholder". Hence, it's far more convincing to give some bowling-averages.

I cannot believe anyone would honestly look at the attacks of the last 6 years and not notice how roundly awful they've mostly been.
Except "giving bowling averages" doesn't prove anything about the quality of the bowling, which is the point. Comparing the bowling averages of two bowlers who faced the same opposition in the same conditions can be a useful way of measuring their value, but comparing players across eras based on their averages is futile, given that the value of a bowling average is naturally balanced against the ease of taking wickets. Bowling averages could be higher because bowling is worse, or batting is better, of fielding is worse, or pitches are flatter, or whatever other reason.

For what it's worth, I agree that bowling in the current era isn't as strong as it was in the 90s, and that batting conditions the world over in the first few years of this decade were as easy as they have ever been, at least for more than half a century. The last few seasons have been much more normal in terms of the variation in pitches available though, since around 05/06. There was a period where almost all test wickets around the world were very flat, and that along with the retirement of many good bowlers served to inflate averages. I think the issue is massively overblown today, though. I think there's quite a number of very good bowlers in world cricket today, and also a new generation of bowlers who would be considered highly promising in any era.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
There are certain balls no batsman has any realistic chance of playing.

There are also certain balls no batsman, unless he's playing an exceptionally unorthodox stroke (an extreme rarity in cricket of 4 or 5 days' duration) is never going to score from.
Certain balls no batsman is never going to score from? Excellent, that means he's always going to score from them.

It's true though, I've heard that the throat high beamer is a right little devil.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Except "giving bowling averages" doesn't prove anything about the quality of the bowling, which is the point. Comparing the bowling averages of two bowlers who faced the same opposition in the same conditions can be a useful way of measuring their value, but comparing players across eras based on their averages is futile, given that the value of a bowling average is naturally balanced against the ease of taking wickets. Bowling averages could be higher because bowling is worse, or batting is better, of fielding is worse, or pitches are flatter, or whatever other reason.

For what it's worth, I agree that bowling in the current era isn't as strong as it was in the 90s, and that batting conditions the world over in the first few years of this decade were as easy as they have ever been, at least for more than half a century. The last few seasons have been much more normal in terms of the variation in pitches available though, since around 05/06. There was a period where almost all test wickets around the world were very flat, and that along with the retirement of many good bowlers served to inflate averages. I think the issue is massively overblown today, though. I think there's quite a number of very good bowlers in world cricket today, and also a new generation of bowlers who would be considered highly promising in any era.
Certainly, things have been looking up the last year (don't think it's any more than one year mind). Hopefully in a couple of years' time we'll look back and say "between 2001\02 and 2005\06" rather than "since 2001".

Right now, though, that's all it is - promising. The last 2 Tests in Australia show that there's still a way to go. I wait to see whether things truly are getting better.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Certain balls no batsman is never going to score from? Excellent, that means he's always going to score from them.

It's true though, I've heard that the throat high beamer is a right little devil.
No, certain balls no batsman is ever going to score from.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Certainly, things have been looking up the last year (don't think it's any more than one year mind). Hopefully in a couple of years' time we'll look back and say "between 2001\02 and 2005\06" rather than "since 2001".

Right now, though, that's all it is - promising. The last 2 Tests in Australia show that there's still a way to go. I wait to see whether things truly are getting better.
The last two tests in Australia don't really show anything, there are plenty of flat wickets in every country in every era, and one of the flaws with the "batting today is infinitely easier than in any other era" argument is that people seem to forget the number of roads in every other time period. Watch a test in the 80s and more often than not it'd be on a pretty flat pitch too, but people didn't manage high 50s averages.

Brisbane was only marginally flatter than normal anyway, it did a bit on day one and then flattened out, which is normal. Hobart was par for the course at that ground too. And if anything, Lee's amazing bowling on two relatively dead wickets would be worthy of comment, with regard to the strength of bowling in world cricket. And while those tests were going on, South Africa were playing New Zealand on lively pitches.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The last two tests in Australia don't really show anything, there are plenty of flat wickets in every country in every era, and one of the flaws with the "batting today is infinitely easier than in any other era" argument is that people seem to forget the number of roads in every other time period. Watch a test in the 80s and more often than not it'd be on a pretty flat pitch too, but people didn't manage high 50s averages.

Brisbane was only marginally flatter than normal anyway, it did a bit on day one and then flattened out, which is normal. Hobart was par for the course at that ground too. And if anything, Lee's amazing bowling on two relatively dead wickets would be worthy of comment, with regard to the strength of bowling in world cricket. And while those tests were going on, South Africa were playing New Zealand on lively pitches.
I'm well aware they were, and this in itself is an improvement on, say, 2002\03. I'm also well aware that flat pitches didn't appear having never been seen for 60 years in September 2001.

The reason a flat pitch wasn't quite such an issue in the 1980s was... yes, there were more bowlers around then who could get something out of any surface. Nonetheless, the two surfaces in Australia were flat enough to completely negate all bowlers... except Brett Lee. Including two bowlers who are better than Lee in their sleep.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Not really, you know perfectly well what was being said, regardless of what was being typed.

And no-one else has been mislead, so the edit wasn't really too late at all.
I do believe Richard is almost admitting he made an error here, admittedly only a minor inconsequential use of a wrong word............but it's a start.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
I'm well aware they were, and this in itself is an improvement on, say, 2002\03. I'm also well aware that flat pitches didn't appear having never been seen for 60 years in September 2001.

The reason a flat pitch wasn't quite such an issue in the 1980s was... yes, there were more bowlers around then who could get something out of any surface. Nonetheless, the two surfaces in Australia were flat enough to completely negate all bowlers... except Brett Lee. Including two bowlers who are better than Lee in their sleep.
I disagree that Johnson, Clark or Murali were "completely negated" by the conditions. Murali bowled very well at times but came up against a very good batting lineup in good form and with excellent plans against him. It's not the first time Australia have gotten the better of Murali, though in Australian conditions it's mainly been in ODIs, for obvious reasons. Johnson had a very good debut series and Clark was also quite good, albeit not as devastating as he was last summer. The Hobart pitch was quite flat but it wasn't absolutely dead, and quite a few wickets were taken with very good deliveries.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I disagree that Johnson, Clark or Murali were "completely negated" by the conditions. Murali bowled very well at times but came up against a very good batting lineup in good form and with excellent plans against him. It's not the first time Australia have gotten the better of Murali, though in Australian conditions it's mainly been in ODIs, for obvious reasons. Johnson had a very good debut series and Clark was also quite good, albeit not as devastating as he was last summer. The Hobart pitch was quite flat but it wasn't absolutely dead, and quite a few wickets were taken with very good deliveries.
Johnson had a decent debut series (and TBF he's been negated far more in domestic cricket than the Lankans managed so far this season) but he hardly looked anything ritz. Clark looked more ordinary than I'd ever have imagined he'd look of times TBH, especially when Sangakkara was belting it around late in the Bellerive Test. Even if he got half-decent figures outside said session.

Australia "getting the better" of Murali doesn't explain him averaging 100, though. If there's something in the pitch, anything, he'll do a damn sight better than that.
 

Top