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Better player at their peak

Peak Smith vs Peak Viv


  • Total voters
    26

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
7 matches. 5 in 1977, in which there were no WSC games and he averaged sub 30.
I edited that. Fair point for 1977. But my other points stand: including the variety of challenges of Viv, no poor attacks to bash or the abundance of flat tracks at home. Plus yeah, the SR factor. Anyways Smith has a crazy peak too, and demonstrated the highest quality of batsmenship in series like 2017 Ind
 
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subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
In a 4 year period (in around 40 tests) , Smith averaged 76 and scored 3 fewer hundreds than Viv's entire career. The batting environment was undoubtedly more friendly but think about how ridiculous that stat is.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...4;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
If the rate of scoring cheap tons against mostly moderate to poor attacks is the standard, then you can find others who similarly lined their pockets. Hayden scored 19 tons in around 40 tests between 2001 to 2004, Ponting 21 tons in around 40 tests between 2003 to 2007. It doesn't mean that much.

Yousuf scores 9 tons in 11 games in 2006, does that mean he had a better year than Viv in 1976?

Attacks and pitches are the key frankly.
 
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kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
That’s the trouble with you bull artists. Say one thing one time. Contradict it another. Whatever fits the narrative.
You obviously have an issue with me, but that's not my problem, and you're free to join the line.

My issue exists when people deliberately lie about what I say to suit their narrative. We had split conditions, right down the middle. Never said otherwise
 

the big bambino

Cricketer Of The Year
You obviously have an issue with me, but that's not my problem, and you're free to join the line.

My issue exists when people deliberately lie about what I say to suit their narrative. We had split conditions, right down the middle. Never said otherwise
If there's a line perhaps you're the one at fault.

You defended Marshall saying your pitches were fair and big up Richards for batting in "challenging conditions". Whatever ... whenever. Because narrative.
 

OverratedSanity

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If the rate of scoring cheap tons against mostly moderate to poor attacks is the standard
This is something you parrot without even bothering to look into. Most teams Smith faced in the 2014-2019 peak had good to great attacks.

England :

Anderson, Broad (better as a duo than Botham/Willis who you're gassing up imo) in 2015 and 2017 ashes.

Broad and Archer in 2019 ashes.

New Zealand :
Boult / Southee both very good bowlers.

India : Shami/Umesh/Ishant/Ashwin/Jadeja. They attack bowled poorly in the 2014/15 series but were very tough in 2017

South Africa : Steyn/Morkel /Philander in 2014 then added Rabada and Abbott in 2016

Sri Lanka : Herath by himself makes this a tough prospect because the 2016 series was played in SL

Pakistan: Poor, but in the series played in UAE, I wouldn't call Yasir easy to face

WI: Poor

None of this is to argue these attacks are overall harder to face than the ones in Viv's era. But classifying them as mediocre to poor (when there's only two actually poor attacks) is flat out incorrect. As is comparing them with the utter dross that Ponting/Hayden/Yousuf faced in the mid 2000s when bowling stocks were very thin around the world. You're wrong and you know it.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This is something you parrot without even bothering to look into. Most teams Smith faced in the 2014-2019 peak had good to great attacks.
Which was the great attack? SA 2014 and India 2017 sure. Not the rest.

None of this is to argue these attacks are overall harder to face than the ones in Viv's era. But classifying them as mediocre to poor (when there's only two actually poor attacks) is flat out incorrect.
Except I used the word moderate, not mediocre. Fair, I should have classified what I meant by moderate but we agree Viv faced more quality and tougher pitches.

As is comparing them with the utter dross that Ponting/Hayden/Yousuf faced in the mid 2000s when bowling stocks were very thin around the world. You're wrong and you know it.
Looks like you made the same mistake you accused me of.

I could pick names that Ponting and Hayden faced like Shoaib, Kumble, Murali, Pollock, Walsh, Saqlain, Ashes quartet and make it seem like they had a tougher time than they did too. But the reality is that they cashed in similar to Smith on weaker attacks they faced which added disproportionately to their peak.(would grant that Ponting and Hayden had generally more weaker ones which is why Smith has a better peak).

Smith has many multiple series averaging 100 plus against the weaker attacks and wasn't nearly as dominant against the top end attacks (2017 is a glorious exception). So that breakdown is important.
 
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Xix2565

International Regular
Looks like you made the same mistake you accused me of.

I could pick names that Ponting and Hayden faced like Shoaib, Kumble, Murali, Pollock, Walsh, Saqlain, Ashes quartet and make it seem like they had a tougher time than they did too. But the reality is that they cashed in similar to Smith on weaker attacks they faced.
Well no, because he actually pointed out which were good and bad attacks. You on the other hand only ever give names and expect people to believe that one name = good attack. You rarely ever actually give numbers/records across series and time period to show exactly how good the attacks were.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well no, because he actually pointed out which were good and bad attacks. You on the other hand only ever give names and expect people to believe that one name = good attack. You rarely ever actually give numbers/records across series and time period to show exactly how good the attacks were.
Except when I give you numbers in the other thread which you ignore.

Anyways I amended the above to make it clearer that Ponting and Hayden did have it easier so thanks for your input.
 

R!TTER

State Regular
Smith’s peak was insane agreed and one of the best ever, and he had some ATG tours like 2017 Ind and 2019 Eng.
The 2017 series stats are at least slightly over rated, he played well at Pune in second innings with almost zero pressure & 6-7 dropped catches. The hundred at Ranchi was on a pancake of a wicket where India could've potentially batted all 5 days - if they batted first. Dharamshala hundred was good but again batting first. In terms of actual "conditions" only the Pune hundred was on a dicy track, even that was with a lot of chances & massive first innings lead, so virtually no pressure.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Except when I give you numbers in the other thread which you ignore.

Anyways I amended the above to make it clearer that Ponting and Hayden did have it easier so thanks for your input.
You didn't give numbers in the proper context unlike me. How am I supposed to take it seriously? You also ignore other players' numbers simply to avoid answering my points. Stop being so hypocritical.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
If there's a line perhaps you're the one at fault.

You defended Marshall saying your pitches were fair and big up Richards for batting in "challenging conditions". Whatever ... whenever. Because narrative.
They were challenging for both, I guess that's hard to grasp.

So I'll try to make it simpler this time.

Sabina and Kensington were among the most challenging wickets for batsmen to score on runs on against pace. Hence challenging.
Bourda was challenging if you were facing spin, as it was a turner, but slow and unhelpful to pace. So was Antigua,. It was just a road.
So that's two that were not conducive to pave bowling.

QPO was iffy, not the fastest but the bounce wasn't the truest either. That one was a toss up

Did that make it easier for you to understand?
 

OverratedSanity

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Well no, because he actually pointed out which were good and bad attacks. You on the other hand only ever give names and expect people to believe that one name = good attack. You rarely ever actually give numbers/records across series and time period to show exactly how good the attacks were.
He won't do it because he'd have to go through the 2002-03 period of Ponting's peak when it was nothing but absolute dross he was being served up to bash.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You didn't give numbers in the proper context unlike me. How am I supposed to take it seriously? You also ignore other players' numbers simply to avoid answering my points. Stop being so hypocritical.
Which numbers did I avoid?
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The 2017 series stats are at least slightly over rated, he played well at Pune in second innings with almost zero pressure & 6-7 dropped catches. The hundred at Ranchi was on a pancake of a wicket where India could've potentially batted all 5 days - if they batted first. Dharamshala hundred was good but again batting first. In terms of actual "conditions" only the Pune hundred was on a dicy track, even that was with a lot of chances & massive first innings lead, so virtually no pressure.
I still give him credit for that as an ATG series.
 

OverratedSanity

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The 2017 series stats are at least slightly over rated, he played well at Pune in second innings with almost zero pressure & 6-7 dropped catches. The hundred at Ranchi was on a pancake of a wicket where India could've potentially batted all 5 days - if they batted first. Dharamshala hundred was good but again batting first. In terms of actual "conditions" only the Pune hundred was on a dicy track, even that was with a lot of chances & massive first innings lead, so virtually no pressure.
You can nitpick every single series like this if we're really righting off hundreds for having luck or being in the first innings. Point is, that series was pretty low scoring. Only Smith, Pujara and Rahul scored any substantial runs. No one else even managed to average 40.

I do agree the Pune innings is very overrated by the way. But lucky breaks happen.
 

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