Better Batsman : Jadeja vs Imran

[ankitj]

Senseless compared to fifties for lower order batsmen. Senseless is due to that specific stats being not very useful in making comparisons. I am not sure how you jumped to conclusion that I was advocating for all stats not helping in judging/comparing players.

Sample size of tons are too low to see meaningful difference for most lower order batsmen. Sample size of 50+ scores are large enough for most lower order batsmen to see if any meaningful difference exists.

20 fifty plus vs 40 fifty plus scores by a lower order batsman in 100 tests tells me a lot more than 2 tons vs 4 tons despite ratio being 1:2 in both.

Can you please withdraw your stats in wins argument?

 

[Randomfan]

At least explain why you don't find it convincing.

Already stated, you simply missed counter arguments.

You want to make an aguement that IK had a harder time to bat by citing him facing so and so. At least present the data. You are calling me lazy, I will do the job for you.

During IK career: Batting avg was 32.65





During Jadeja's career: Batting avg is 31.49




Clearly, Jadejs was not having easier time to bat than IK. That's why IK facing XYZ was not convincing. Some other posters also talked about Jadeja batting in tougher home grounds. You just ignored it.

 

[subshakerz]

Already stated, you simply missed counter arguments.

You want to make an aguement that IK had a harder time to bat by citing him facing so and so. At least present the data. You are calling me lazy, I will do the job for you.

During IK career: Batting avg was 32.65

View attachment 49140



During Jadeja's career: Batting avg is 31.49

View attachment 49141


Clearly, Jadejs was not having easier time to bat than IK. That's why IK facing XYZ was not convincing. Some other posters also talked about Jadeja batting in tougher home grounds. You just ignored it.

I am talking high end impact innings.

 

[Randomfan]

Can you please withdraw your stats in wins argument?

My intended purpose was not to prove that one player is better than other using stats in win. I should have been more clear. If I gave that impression, I withdraw it and apologies.

I was trying to make a point that if you keep scoring 50+ with higher frequencies then you are going to help your team a lot more as a lower order batsman. Consistent lower order 50+ runs are extremely important in tilting the balance of match. Pure win or loss is about other 21 players in the match as well, but we can't ignore importance of a lower order batsman consistently scoring 50+ runs. In fact, India better run came due to Ahswin/Jadeja and recently Pant adding those runs most of the times. I don't think it will look the same without them being there.

 

[subshakerz]

I was trying to make a point that if you keep scoring 50+ with higher frequencies then you are going to help your team a lot more as a lower order batsman.

The argument is who is a better overall bat not lower order bat.

 

[ankitj]

My intended purpose was not to prove that one player is better than other using stats in win. I should have been more clear. If I gave that impression, I withdraw it and apologies.

I was trying to make a point that if you keep scoring 50+ with higher frequencies then you are going to help your team a lot more as a lower order batsman. Consistent lower order 50+ runs are extremely important in tilting the balance of match. Pure win or loss is about other 21 players in the match as well, but we can't ignore importance of a lower order batsman consistently scoring 50+ runs. In fact, India better run came due to Ahswin/Jadeja and recently Pant adding those runs most of the times. I don't think it will look the same without them being there.

Cool. Any player wins more matches against weaker teams and in favourable conditions. So you are likely to get inverse selection if you filter by wins. Kumble has a better average in wins than Warne because Kumble's team couldn't win away from home against strong teams. It's a grossly flawed way to look at impact.

 

[Randomfan]

The argument is who is a better overall bat not lower order bat.

IK has batted 83 out 88 tests at 6th or lower. Similar in case of Jadeja.

You yourself said that both are marginal 6/7 position batsman. I disagreed and think that both could have batted at 6th spot in many XIs of different nations in their second half of career. Anyway, both are lower order batsmen and have batted mostly at 6 or lower positions. Better over all is not different arguement than better lower order here.

 

[Randomfan]

Cool. Any player wins more matches against weaker teams and in favourable conditions. So you are likely to get inverse selection if you filter by wins. Kumble has a better average in wins than Warne because Kumble's team couldn't win away from home against strong teams. It's a grossly flawed way to look at impact.

Yah, it can throw not so meaningful results. Agree totally with that.

 

[Randomfan]

I am talking high end impact innings.

Then go ahead and list for BOTH. Posters list data for both players when comparing. I listed all data for both players in this thread when comparing.

Don't just list 3 knocks by IK facing XYZ in his long career and call others lazy for not doing the work or not responding to this.

 

[subshakerz]

IK has batted 83 out 88 tests at 6th or lower. Similar in case of Jadeja.

You yourself said that both are marginal 6/7 position batsman. I disagreed and think that both could have batted at 6th spot in many XIs of different nations in their second half of career. Anyway, both are lower order batsmen and have batted mostly at 6 or lower positions. Better over all is not different arguement than better lower order here.

Which bat would you rate higher in their peak in their career?

 

[Randomfan]

Which bat would you rate higher in their peak in their career?

It's not their primary skill and both have stepped up only in later half. I am not sure I see the case of peak here as batsman for both in tradional sense we discuss peak of a batsman or bowler.

May be some one, who has watched both, can make that call.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not their primary skill and both have stepped up only in later half. I am not sure I see the case of peak here as batsman for both in tradional sense we discuss peak of a batsman or bowler.

May be some one, who has watched both, can make that call.

Hmm

 

[ma1978]

Which bat would you rate higher in their peak in their career?

well Imran never had a series like the last one

 

[ankitj]

well Imran never had a series like the last one

Imran once won a player of the series just for his batting.

 

[subshakerz]

well Imran never had a series like the last one

Ok but Jadeja has hardly had that many very good series with the bat aside from this one where he scored at least a couple of 50 plus scores.

Imran has several at home, a couple in England, a couple in Aus, one in NZ.

Hence I argue recency bias.

 

[ankitj]

Anyways summarizing reasons for Imran over Jadeja for now:

- Played notably more away from home, Jadeja doesn't have much sample outside Aus and Eng and was often dropped

This is irrelevant. Reason Jadeja has missed games away from home is not because he is not a good enough batter but because he is not a good enough bowler. By same token Imran always played away not because he was a superb batter but because he was a top tier bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

This is irrelevant. Reason Jadeja has missed games away from home is not because he is not a good enough batter but because he is not a good enough bowler. By same token Imran always played away not because he was a superb batter but because he was a top tier bowler.

Getting dropped was not my real point. Less away games does matter because Jadeja barely has samples in SL, NZ and SA for us to judge him better on.

By the way, Imran did play as a specialist batter away from home occasionally and did well.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Ok but Jadeja has hardly had that many very good series with the bat aside from this one where he scored at least a couple of 50 plus scores.

Imran has several at home, a couple in England, a couple in Aus, one in NZ.

Hence I argue recency bias.

Given that Jadeja has considerably more 50+ scores than Imran in roughly a similar amount of tests, how do you think this is possible at all?

 

[subshakerz]

Given that Jadeja has much more 50+ scores than Imran in roughly a similar amount of tests, how do you think this is possible at all?

Remove Bangladesh/WI for Jadeja and remove SL for Imran and the 50 gap isn't that big at all.

But what I stated was more more series and it's a fact that Imran had more batting series of substances

 

[_00_deathscar]

Remove Bangladesh/WI for Jadeja and remove SL for Imran and the 50 gap isn't that big at all.

But what I stated was more more series and it's a fact that Imran had more batting series of substances

Ah ok so we’re back to more filtering and not what you originally said.
And to your second point, no - I checked the series too. Your point, as always, is utter bullshit.