Better Batsman : Jadeja vs Imran

[ma1978]

I think he would have been picked ahead of Nair even before this series started, but yeah probably not all the time before Kohli retired. Would have been close for quite a while though - making squads as a reserve batsman etc.

even that would be a mistake, he should have walked in to the side for batting last five years

 

[ataraxia]

No it's not, you just said tons have disproportionately less impact than 50s.

Do you understand what "disproportionately" means?

Batting average can be affected by a relatively higher number of NOs. Both Imran and Jadeja have a 7 point difference between average and RPI.

Scoring tons is a separate test that a batsman can stick around for long haul.

This is a valid point I did not consider. But I think "length of longest innings (plural)" is a better barometer than "number of 100s", and I'd chuck in FC record for good measure. (That was genuinely not a ploy to say "haha Jadeja has 3 FC 300s" but it is now.)

 

[subshakerz]

Do you understand what "disproportionately" means?


This is a valid point I did not consider. But I think "length of longest innings (plural)" is a better barometer than "number of 100s", and I'd chuck in FC record for good measure. (That was genuinely not a ploy to say "haha Jadeja has 3 FC 300s" but it is now.)

Jadeja has improved as his career moved along, like Imran, but I don't think he would be able to bat in the top six if he was just purely a 50 scoring specialist, which was the case in the 2010s. It's a quality issue where the threat level of a bat must be more than just scoring useful knocks.

I consider Jadeja to be middle order specialist bat quality basically around 2022 onwards, when he showed the ability to score quality clutch hundreds.

 

[ma1978]

Jadeja has improved as his career moved along, like Imran, but I don't think he would be able to bat in the top six if he was just purely a 50 scoring specialist, which was the case in the 2010s. It's a quality issue where the threat level of a bat must be more than just scoring useful knocks.

I consider Jadeja to be middle order specialist bat quality basically around 2022 onwards, when he showed the ability to score quality clutch hundreds.

you can’t call someone a 50 scoring specialist and then note the not outs because those could be 100s as well, I’m not sure there is such a thing as a 50 scoring specialist. Thats why we have average as the primary method yo rate a batsman,

 

[subshakerz]

you can’t call someone a 50 scoring specialist and then note the not outs because those could be 100s as well, I’m not sure there is such a thing as a 50 scoring specialist. Thats why we have average as the primary method yo rate a batsman,

Sorry but we can't assume every second 20 or 30 NO is going to be hundred either. If you are much better than tail bats like Imran and Jadeja were you will collect enough NOs.

Look, there clearly was an improvement in Jadejas game around 2022 because he was batting no.7 before that but before then he wasnt capable of scoring hundreds. His defence seem tighter and he just looks more assured at the crease.

4 out of 5 hundreds from Jadeja have come in this period. This supports my point, scoring tons is a quality issue.

 

[Randomfan]

Sorry but crossing 50 isn't to me the mark of a better bat if your RPI is the same. Doesn't make sense.

Tons yes because those innings have disproportionately bigger impact and show a capacity for lasting the distance.

I heard you, and I disagree for lower order batsmen and tons frequencies logic.

For top order batsmen, tons tells me something because they have enough time to score ton. For lower order, tons are rare due to position they bat. Some one can have 4,5 or 6... all are same, Differene of 1-2 tons will be noise. For lower order, 50+ scores are not rare. Batsmen can have 15 vs 30 fifty plus scores and they are not same. Difference of 15 tons is not noise but indicator of lower or batsman lasting the distance.

Judging nased on ton for loswer order can have data like 4 ton vs 5 tons - difference of 1 ton is a noise when comaparing.
Judging based on 50+ for lower order can have data like 15 fifty plus vs 30 fifty plus. That's not noise, that's proper sample size to get any meaning out of it.

Jadeja has simply shown capacity to go distance far frequently than Dev and IK, it;s not even close. That's why I think he is clearly ahead now. We just have to agree to disagree in using tons , which can be 4 vs 5, for lower order for any meanigful differentiation.

 

[Randomfan]

A persisting myth, but tons have disproportionately smaller impact than fifties because they're more likely to be scored in dead games.

In other words, 50 & 50 = 100 & 0. It's not complicated: reaching three figures doesn't make an innings three times as impactful.

It's actually common sense that lower order is going to have more chance to make impact with 50+ consistently than ton. Most of the times, lower order , no matter how well they are batting, are not going to get to ton. For top order it's a different sitaution and ton can tell us something.

Jadeja scores 50+ frequently. In 14 away wins he had played, he has scored 7 times 50 plus scores. Many times , those 50 were crutial in winning. There is no need to do round about argument for imapact.

Ik has just 1 fifty plus score in away win and he has played in 9 wins. Clearly, Jadeja impact is far bigger despite career ton counts looking similar( 5 vs 6). Ton count difference of 1-2 is not going to make much difference in 80-90 tests. You are right, it's likely to come in draws in dead pitches anyway. But if you score 20 fifty plus vs 35 fifty plus then difference of 15 fifty plus scores will be meanigful and crucial in team doing well and winning games. 35 fifty plus score will have many great fifties with match in balance and not just on dead pitches heading for draws.

 

[subshakerz]

I heard you, and I disagree for lower order batsmen and tons frequencies logic.

For top order batsmen, tons tells me something because they have enough time to score ton. For lower order, tons are rare due to position they bat. Some one can have 4,5 or 6... all are same, Differene of 1-2 tons will be noise. For lower order, 50+ scores are not rare. Batsmen can have 15 vs 30 fifty plus scores and they are not same. Difference of 15 tons is not noise but indicator of lower or batsman lasting the distance.

Judging nased on ton for loswer order can have data like 4 ton vs 5 tons - difference of 1 ton is a noise when comaparing.
Judging based on 50+ for lower order can have data like 15 fifty plus vs 30 fifty plus. That's not noise, that's proper sample size to get any meaning out of it.

Jadeja has simply shown capacity to go distance far frequently than Dev and IK, it;s not even close. That's why I think he is clearly ahead now. We just have to agree to disagree in using tons , which can be 4 vs 5, for lower order for any meanigful differentiation.

A few extra 50s for Jadjeja over Imran doesn't mean much to me. Neither does Imran having one extra ton. Because their run output is the same.

Anyways, Jadeja himself is proof of my argument. For a decade, he only had one ton vs WI. Now that he is clearly in the form of his life and a better bat, he has scored 4 tons the last four years despite batting lower order.

Hence being specialist quality as a bat is related to tons for me as mark of quality.

 

[subshakerz]

Anyways summarizing reasons for Imran over Jadeja for now:

- Played notably more away from home, Jadeja doesn't have much sample outside Aus and Eng and was often dropped

- Slightly higher ceiling with more clutch knocks against quality pace attacks and a very good bat by career end

- Jadeja still has the potential to go higher or lower as his career is going. So can't claim him as better yet.

 

[Randomfan]

Tons are senseless metric to see impact of lower order batsman in long careers because it happen so rarely.

As far as two batsmen in question.

Jadeja in wins: 20 times he chipped in with 50+ scores. It means every 2.5 test wins, Jadeja was there with 50+ contribution in test match to help his team win.







IK in wins: 5 times in his career he chipped in with 50+ scores in wins. That means, every 5th test wins for Pakistan IK contributed with 50+ scores.




It's even more lopsided away, IK has just 1 50+ scores in win away while being part of team with 9 away wins. Jadeja has 7 50+ scores while being part of team with 14 away wins. I won't focus in exact number , but rate tells me that more often you score 50+ while batting lower, you will help your team consistently.

4 tons vs 5 tons in 80-90 tests, not going to tell much lower order batsman. Differences in most cases are not going to be meaningful in long career.

15 vs 30 fifty plus scores , tells a lot more about lower order batsman in 80-90 tests. Difference in most case is meanigful in long career.

Ignoring 15 vs 30 fifty plus and focusing on 4 tons vs 5 tons is just illogical for lower order batsman. Yes, I am aware of fans not counting anyone as all rounder till they get some tons, but two players in comaprison have 5-6 tons so non-issue.

In short, as a lower order batsman you have a far more chance/instances/oppurtunities to influence the game with 50+ contribution than 100+ contribution. It's true with Jadeja and IK situation. It will be true in pretty much all situations.

 

[subshakerz]

Tons are senseless metric to see impact of lower order batsman in long careers because it happen so rarely.

That's the incorrect way to put.

The capacity to score tons with somewhat frequency is the sign of a better quality overall bat.

And the best proof for this is Jadeja scoring more tons from the lower order as he got better.

Btw your examples don't include matches being saved which was Imran's speciality.

 

[ankitj]

Tons are senseless metric to see impact of lower order batsman in long careers because it happen so rarely.

As far as two batsmen in question.

Jadeja in wins: 20 times he chipped in with 50+ scores. It means every 2.5 test wins, Jadeja was there with 50+ contribution in test match to help his team win.

You say tons are senseless metric and then bring out stats in wins. Ironical.

 

[subshakerz]

You say tons are senseless metric and then bring out stats in wins. Ironical.

Imran in 1980 came in at 95-5 and scored a ton against an attack of Croft, Marshall, Clarke and Garner. Pakistan drew the game thanks to that.

Imagine thinking that is less relevant than a fifty scored in a win against Bangladesh or modern WI.

 

[Randomfan]

You say tons are senseless metric and then bring out stats in wins. Ironical.

Senseless compared to fifties for lower order batsmen. Senseless is due to that specific stats being not very useful in making comparisons. I am not sure how you jumped to conclusion that I was advocating for all stats not helping in judging/comparing players.

Sample size of tons are too low to see meaningful difference for most lower order batsmen. Sample size of 50+ scores are large enough for most lower order batsmen to see if any meaningful difference exists.

20 fifty plus vs 40 fifty plus scores by a lower order batsman in 100 tests tells me a lot more than 2 tons vs 4 tons despite ratio being 1:2 in both.

 

[ma1978]

Senseless compared to fifties for lower order batsmen due to very low sample size of tons.

also the rate of going past 50 and going past 100 is so much higher for Jadeja. This one isn’t that much of an argument. The only argument you can make for Imran is “I like him better”

 

[Randomfan]

also the rate of going past 50 and going past 100 is so much higher for Jadeja. This one isn’t that much of an argument. The only argument you can make for Imran is “I like him better”

I don't have an issue in anyone liking IK more if they have watched both players entire career. But for everyone else, all we have left is data.

I see frequencies of 50+ way more effective to judge a player than frequencies of tons if they are batting in lower order. 3, 4 or 5 tons are not that meaningful difference when it comes to impact of players over a long career. But 30, 40 or 50 half-tons becomes meaningful in seeing the difference in impact of players over a long career.

Anyway, consensus in this thread is that Jadeja is better than IK. I see the same way. No issue with anyone seeing differently.

 

[subshakerz]

also the rate of going past 50 and going past 100 is so much higher for Jadeja. This one isn’t that much of an argument. The only argument you can make for Imran is “I like him better”

It isn't higher for Jadeja.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't have an issue in anyone liking IK more if they have watched both players entire career. But for everyone else, all we have left is data.

I see frequencies of 50+ way more effective to judge a player than frequencies of tons if they are batting in lower order. 3, 4 or 5 tons are not that meaningful difference when it comes to impact of players over a long career. But 30, 40 or 50 half-tons becomes meaningful in seeing the difference in impact of players over a long career.

Anyway, consensus in this thread is that Jadeja is better than IK. I see the same way. No issue with anyone seeing differently.

You didn't actually address my arguments. You are just repeating the same point.

 

[Randomfan]

You didn't actually address my arguments. You are just repeating the same point.

I am not sure I heard any convincing claim. If your claim is that IK batted against so and so, that's neither here or there, Because then some one can say Jadeja batted in many 200-220 all out kinds of pitches in home grounds lots of times which Ik did not bat. We all try to make so many points about period after 2017 being harder to bat on average and that's where Jadeja has scored bulk of his runs. Did you have any different arguement?

I am repeating the same point because that shows a big gap. I will hugely prefer a 40 times half tons than 20 times half tons from a lower order batsman in 100 tests because it will have chance to influence far more games. Jadeja has influenced far more games than IK with his bat and he is still playing.

If a big gap was lets say average, then it can be repeated. If a big gap is RPI then it can be repeated.

 

[subshakerz]

I am not sure I heard any convincing claim.

At least explain why you don't find it convincing. You are to lazy to even bother to do that and try and understand the other side.

Instead you want to mindlessly repeat the same scoring 50s frequency argument a dozen times in a single thread as if folks don't already get it.

If you don't wish to engage or have your views challenged, just post your argument once and leave it there rather than waste folks time.