Better All Rounder Pair

[BazBall21]

Botham has 9 more hundreds than Jadeja

Jadeja & Imran are a similar level with the bat.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Gavaskar has 10 more hundreds than Viv

 

[PlayerComparisons]

How long do we reckon Jadeja has? He's 37 now and still the fittest guy in the squad by a mile. There's literally nothing stopping him from playing till 40 and maybe even an year or two beyond. I don't mind if he transitions to a fully batting-oriented role in the side by then, though his bowling will always be useful in India.

Hopefully at least 100 tests

 

[BazBall21]

Yeah, but Viv doesn't only have 5.

 

[subshakerz]

Gavaskar has 10 more hundreds than Viv

Give me a top six bat you would pick with five tons in 80 odd tests.

 

[subshakerz]

Based on all evidence, I would say he is good to bat at 6th spot for all teams.

To put it in context, the last 60+ tests for Jadeja:

View attachment 49095

In this 63 tests: Indian pitches at home were not easy to bat most of the times and we can see how we stand up to others in away performance in the same period,

Away from home for all batsmen:

View attachment 49096


I don't see a strong case of Jadeja not able to bat in top 6 based on actual outputs. I would think he can get into most countries XI and bat at number 6. It's also looks good if you see break up,

Jadeja averages 34-42 in all venues where he played more than 3 tests during his career. Early few years, he wasn'ty that good as batsman, but it;s been now close to 10 years him doing well as a batsman. I would say it's not marginal anymore. He can bat at 6th spot for sure.

How come for some reason for people can easily claim inflated averages for Imran on RPI and NOs but not for Jadeja? Maybe a bit of hypocrisy here?

Anyways, we are talking Jadeja as an overall bat.

 

[Randomfan]

How come for some reason for people can easily claim inflated averages for Imran on RPI and NOs but not for Jadeja? Maybe a bit of hypocrisy here?

I did not see IK bat but simply looking at stats, I would say he could have played as 6th spot as batsman in many lines up well in later half of his career. You are not going to get lots of tons at batting at lower order. I am going to look number 6th spot and ton to check what batsmen actually got. We can't club 1-6 with 6th spot when trying to see ton counts.

 

[subshakerz]

No I ain't. You are significantly worse in this Lol. Sorry but no sorry.

Jadeja averages 44 over the last 63 Tests. That's not late career, that's the chunk. And Botham wasn't fit to bat at top 7 for an equally long period as well. That's a fact.

Botham's RPI is 32. Jadeja's is 30.5. Their respective averages are 33 and 38. Not outs boosts average but ignoring them and taking RPI is significantly worse. Jadeja scored everywhere to everyone while Botham shitted pants to WI. Tons are Great, but they also show a staggering lack of consistency.

So you want to ignore Botham has a better RPI, batted higher more consistently, has way more tons and knocks of substance and just declare Jadeja better because he has neater averages around the globe, despite several of those being a handful of tests. Blind average reading again.

You want to gaslight us into thinking that Jadeja was a top six quality bat the past decade despite only ever playing in the top six away this last year. Hmm I wonder why they didn't regularly promote him above away before that despite their middle order often struggling overseas?

 

[subshakerz]

I did not see IK bat but simply looking at stats, I would say he could have played as 6th spot as batsman in many lines up well in later half of his career. You are not going to get lots of tons at batting at lower order. I am going to look number 6th spot and ton to check what batsmen actually got. We can't club 1-6 with 6th spot when trying to see ton counts.

Botham got 14 tons batting mostly at six.

Jadeja has five. He wasnt promoted to top six most of his career because he wasn't good enough. When he batted lower, he got NOs which made his average better.

His overall record is at best a borderline top six. But really a 6/7. It's as simple as that.

 

[BazBall21]

Botham was much more of a game-breaking batsman. Jadeja is a decent support act like Imran. I'd take the one with the higher ceiling.

Also, Botham doesn't have many not outs because that's a trade-off for very aggressive batsmen. I will take his 14 hundreds and much larger run threshold when batting with the tail in return for the comparatively small downside of finishing few of his innings unbeaten.

 

[subshakerz]

Botham was much more of a game-breaking batsman. Jadeja is a decent support act like Imran. I'd take the one with the higher ceiling.

Also, Botham doesn't have many not outs because that's a trade-off for very aggressive batsmen. I will take his 14 hundreds and much larger run threshold when batting with the tail in return for the comparatively small downside of finishing few of his innings unbeaten.

I just think it's fundamentally disingenuous having watched Jadeja to think since 2016 he was a top 6 quality bat. I would say that only in the last four years really when he started scoring tons.

 

[Randomfan]

Botham got 14 tons batting mostly at six.

Jadeja has five. He wasnt promoted to top six most of his career because he wasn't good enough. When he batted lower, he got NOs which made his average better.

His overall record is at best a borderline top six. But really a 6/7. It's as simple as that.

Not sure the point about Botham. I never claimed that Jadeja is better batsman than Botham. I will take Botham over Jadeja as a batsman.

Botham getting lots of tons at number 6 or lower was an exception and not a norm for batting position 6. In entire history, we have only 2 batsmen Gilly and Botham with double digits counts of tons when batting 6 or lower. Even some one like Sobers played 50+ tests at 6th spot with only 9 tons. So we are not going to see too many tons from anyone batting 6 or lower. What we should expect to see is good avg, good RPI and consitent 50+ scores.

I was only making one point. Jadeja has done enough for me to have him play at 6th spot in many current batting line ups now. It's not marginal 6/7 at all for me. He can comfortably bat at 6 in most line ups right now given how balanced his records are in different conditions. I can expect for him to do well in most conditions and add 30-40 runs. I am not sure that I can come up with many names who will do that.

I wasn't claiming that he was good to bat at 6 in most line ups in 2016. I picked that filter so simply show that he has been contributing consistently.

 

[Randomfan]

At 6 or lower, I would like to see how often batsman chips in with 50+ scores. Tons are not going to be frequent when playing that low but good batsman should be able to score 50 runs.

Jadeja with 31 times with fifty or more in 118 innings is very good output. It's actual contribution and not simply average due to not outs.

If a batsman is going to cross fifty only 10-15 times but has higher average it's not useful. You got to actually score runs. 50+ runs in an inning is very handy from 6 or lower batting positions. If Jadeja can have 10 more scores of 50+ then I will rate him much higher, he does not need to score tons.

50+ scores by 6 or lower position batsmen:

 

[Randomfan]

Jadeja also has even much better Avg and no biggie teams like WI. Not Jaddu's fault Botham can't stay unbeaten for his life, avg difference is twice that of RPI difference.

Before this Series, yes. No longer think Imran>Jadeja as batsman is a valid claim.

I will comfortably take Jadeja over IK to bat at 6 or lower.

Jadeja : 118 innings - 31 times 50+ with avg 39 batting at 6 or lower
Imran : 121 innings - 23 times 50+ with avg 36 batting at 6 or lower

Jadeja has batted less times than IK at 6 or lower and yet has drastically higher 50+ scores. That counts for a lot. If 6 or lower can contribute with consistent 50+ scores then it's golden.

If IK is marginal case at 6/7 then Jadeja is more than marginal due to far higher frequency of 50+ and also much more difficult to dislodge. Both factors will help the team. I think IK and Jadeja both were good enough to bat at 6 for second half of their careers in many batting line ups. Jadeja is still playing so we will see where he ends up. Good thing about Jadeja is his ability to score those 50+ runs in all kinds of conditions. His contributions were intrumental in India doing well in Eng & Aus.

 

[ma1978]

Botham and Stokes are better bats than both of them. Botham is the best bowler of the four. Stokes bowling weakness is compensated.

how except in your fantasy world of intuition is Botham a better bat than Jadeja

 

[ma1978]

That's mostly at home though he has improved of late. But I don't think he is a top 6 level bat yet overall. Borderline at best.

did you watch the last series

do you look at numbers or is this just “intuition”

 

[honestbharani]

Good thing Cricinfo exists eh?
Averages 59.42 away from home at #6 (although obviously a lower number of tests)

Also, you really need to stop with this "Jadeja not being a good bat away from home" myth - I've pulled you up on it before.
He actually averages higher away as a batsman - over his career, since 2018 when the pitches became spicier etc.

we won the test and drew the series man. Salty obviously gonna extra salty for a few days.

 

[subshakerz]

how except in your fantasy world of intuition is Botham a better bat than Jadeja

Almost thrice as many tons, more RPI, batted higher his entire career. Comfortably a better bat.

 

[subshakerz]

did you watch the last series

do you look at numbers or is this just “intuition”

Recency bias. If you want to argue he is a top six bat why hasn't he been doing that the last decade?

I argue he is that quality only last four years.

 

[subshakerz]

I will comfortably take Jadeja over IK to bat at 6 or lower.

Jadeja : 118 innings - 31 times 50+ with avg 39 batting at 6 or lower
Imran : 121 innings - 23 times 50+ with avg 36 batting at 6 or lower

Congrats you excluded when Jadeja and Imran batting higher than 6 for pretty much no stated reason because you know it will make Imrans average lower because you just want Jadeja to look better. Imran has a worldclass ton at no.5 better than any Jadeja has scored and you just ignore it entirely in determining who is better bat

If you want to just have Jadeja over Imran because of conversion, fine, just dont exclude stats you don't like. But it hardly makes him a level ahead as a bat if their average and RPI are the same.

Not sure the point about Botham. I never claimed that Jadeja is better batsman than Botham. I will take Botham over Jadeja as a batsman.

Good finally some common sense.

I don't mind those claiming Jadeja is better than Imran but they are clearly near each other and Botham is just better.than both notably so.