Better All Rounder Pair

[_00_deathscar]

That's mostly at home though he has improved of late. But I don't think he is a top 6 level bat yet overall. Borderline at best.

Good thing Cricinfo exists eh?
Averages 59.42 away from home at #6 (although obviously a lower number of tests)

Also, you really need to stop with this "Jadeja not being a good bat away from home" myth - I've pulled you up on it before.
He actually averages higher away as a batsman - over his career, since 2018 when the pitches became spicier etc.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Good thing Cricinfo exists eh?
Averages 59.42 away from home at #6 (although obviously a lower number of tests)

Also, you really need to stop with this "Jadeja not being a good bat away from home" myth - I've pulled you up on it before.
He actually averages higher away as a batsman - over his career, since 2018 when the pitches became spicier etc.

Dude legit scored 500+ just in a series in England

 

[subshakerz]

Good thing Cricinfo exists eh?
Averages 59.42 away from home at #6 (although obviously a lower number of tests)

Also, you really need to stop with this "Jadeja not being a good bat away from home" myth - I've pulled you up on it before.
He actually averages higher away as a batsman - over his career, since 2018 when the pitches became spicier etc.

No I have admitted he is much improved several times as of late. Even in the comment you mentioned.

Stokes is simply better I don't think that is controversial.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No I have admitted he is much improved several times as of late.

You just said his record at 6 is based on Home bashing.....

 

[subshakerz]

You just said his record at 6 is based on Home bashing.....

No I said it's mostly played at home, which Deathscar basically confirmed. I didn't check the averages just that he barely played at no 6 away from home.

 

[Arachnödouche2.0]

How long do we reckon Jadeja has? He's 37 now and still the fittest guy in the squad by a mile. There's literally nothing stopping him from playing till 40 and maybe even an year or two beyond. I don't mind if he transitions to a fully batting-oriented role in the side by then, though his bowling will always be useful in India.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No I said it's mostly played at home, which Deathscar basically confirmed. I didn't check the averages just that he barely played at no 6 away from home.

It totally implies it's due to Home advantage when that's just not true as a whole for his batting record. Jadeja averages 37 at Home, 34.5 in Aus, 35 in NZ, 41 in Eng and 39 in WI. Played less than 3 innings anywhere else (SA and SL). It's legit one of the most balanced batting records by anyone.

 

[Randomfan]

No I said it's mostly played at home, which Deathscar basically confirmed. I didn't check the averages just that he barely played at no 6 away from home.

Jadeja at 6:

13 home games - avg 50 - 455 runs
9 outside home games - avg 51 - 464 runs

Looks pretty balanced. I won't call 9 away tests as barely played.

I recall you making argument about IK being a 6th spot batsman earlier. Guess what, he has played total 10 away tests at 6th spot in his entire career. A bowling all rounder is not likely to play too many away tests at 6th spot.

Before this series, it was fine to say that Jadeja barely played at 6th spot away, I don't think we can say the same for Jadeja anymore. I did not rate him much earlier despite chipping in with runs consistently, but even his home runs were tougher runs due to Indian pitches being not so easy to bat in the last 5-7 years.

 

[subshakerz]

It totally implies it's due to Home advantage when that's just not true as a whole for his batting record. Jadeja averages 37 at Home, 34.5 in Aus, 35 in NZ, 41 in Eng and 39 in WI. Played less than 3 innings anywhere else (SA and SL). It's legit one of the most balanced batting records by anyone.

The argument was whether he is good enough overall as a pure top 6 bat and I argue at best he is borderline. If he didn't bat much in the top six away I would hesitate to place him there but not so for Botham or Stokes.
Understood?

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja at 6:

13 home games - avg 50 - 455 runs
9 outside home games - avg 51 - 464 runs

Looks pretty balanced. I won't call 9 away tests as barely played.

I recall you making argument about IK being a 6th spot batsman earlier. Guess what, he has played total 10 away tests at 6th spot in his entire career. A bowling all rounder is not likely to play too many away tests at 6th spot.

Before this series, it was fine to say that Jadeja barely played at 6th spot away, I don't think we can say the same for Jadeja anymore.

No I said Imran was a 6/7th borderline bat, like Jadeja is now to me.

Botham is a pure no. 6. As is Stokes.

Btw that isn't 25 tests it is 25 innings away at 6.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No I said Imran was a 6/7th borderline bat, like Jadeja is now to me.

Botham is a pure no. 6. As is Stokes.

Btw that isn't 25 tests it is 25 innings away at 6.

Fun fact: Botham's record is worse at 6 than either 7 or 5.

Jadeja and Botham are pretty equal as batsmen by now.

 

[Johan]

Botham > Jadeja
Kapil > Stokes

 

[subshakerz]

Fun fact: Botham's record is worse at 6 than either 7 or 5.

Jadeja and Botham are pretty equal as batsmen by now.

Try not to be so easily influenced by recency bias. Botham batted higher than Jadeja far more consistently, far more tons, and has a notably better RPI.

There is no clear argument for why Jadeja is even better than Imran.

 

[subshakerz]

Botham > Jadeja
Kapil > Stokes

If we include Stokes value as captain then it's England pretty easily.

The way I see it England have the two better bats and the best bowler of the four. So I am fine with them

 

[Randomfan]

The argument was whether he is good enough overall as a pure top 6 bat ..

Based on all evidence, I would say he is good to bat at 6th spot for all teams.

To put it in context, the last 60+ tests for Jadeja:



In this 63 tests: Indian pitches at home were not easy to bat most of the times and we can see how we stand up to others in away performance in the same period,

Away from home for all batsmen:




I don't see a strong case of Jadeja not able to bat in top 6 based on actual outputs. I would think he can get into most countries XI and bat at number 6. It's also looks good if you see break up,

Jadeja averages 34-42 in all venues where he played more than 3 tests during his career. Early few years, he wasn'ty that good as batsman, but it;s been now close to 10 years him doing well as a batsman. I would say it's not marginal anymore. He can bat at 6th spot for sure.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Try not to be so easily influenced by recency bias. Botham batted higher than Jadeja far more consistently, far more tons, and has a notably better RPI.

There is no clear argument for why Jadeja is even better than Imran.

Jadeja also has even much better Avg and no biggie teams like WI. Not Jaddu's fault Botham can't stay unbeaten for his life, avg difference is twice that of RPI difference.

Before this Series, yes. No longer think Imran>Jadeja as batsman is a valid claim.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja also has even much better Avg and no biggie teams like WI. Not Jaddu's fault Botham can't stay unbeaten for his life, avg difference is twice that of RPI difference.

Before this Series, yes. No longer think Imran>Jadeja as batsman is a valid claim.

Nah sorry but batting down the order and with the NO advantage, Jadeja just wasn't a top order quality bat until mid in his career, like Imran.

Botham had the output of a pure top order bat regardless of his holes for the majority of his career.

Regardless of if you think Jadeja is better than Imran, there is no clear advantage that shows he is a LEVEL ahead as a bat. Same averages, same NO issue, similar number of tons, similar distribution of away averages. They are pretty much very close as bats.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Nah sorry but batting down the order and with the NO advantage, Jadeja just wasn't a top order quality bat until mid in his career, like Imran.

Botham had the output of a pure top order bat regardless of his holes for the majority of his career.

Regardless of if you think Jadeja is better than Imran, there is no clear advantage that shows he is a LEVEL ahead as a bat. Same averages, same NO issue, similar number of tons, similar distribution of away averages. They are pretty much very close as bats.

33 vs 38 avg with better difference across teams and conditions for the latter not being close is brain dead. Botham had the output of a top order batsman and then he turned **** and averaged 33 over career. In no team I want a 33 avg batsman as a frontline one.

 

[subshakerz]

33 vs 38 avg with better difference across teams and conditions for the latter not being close is brain dead. Botham had the output of a top order batsman and then he turned **** and averaged 33 over career. In no team I want a 33 avg batsman as a frontline one.

Sorry to say, you really are bad at judging these things and a superficial take on averages is enough to sway you.

Based on that, Imran should be ahead of Botham too. Jadeja has the same NO boost that Imran does. The main issue is Jadeja wasn't seen as good enough to bat in the top six until late in his career. That's a fact.

Botham's RPI was more the median standard for a middle order bat in the 80s era and better than Jadeja. He has the tons also to match that and batted in that position to take that extra pressure.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sorry to say, you really are bad at judging these things and a superficial take on averages is enough to sway you.

Based on that, Imran should be ahead of Botham too. Jadeja has the same NO boost that Imran does. The main issue is Jadeja wasn't seen as good enough to bat in the top six until late in his career. That's a fact.

Botham's RPI was more the median standard for a middle order bat in the 80s era and better than Jadeja. He has the tons also to match that and batted in that position to take that extra pressure.

No I ain't. You are significantly worse in this Lol. Sorry but no sorry.

Jadeja averages 44 over the last 63 Tests. That's not late career, that's the chunk. And Botham wasn't fit to bat at top 7 for an equally long period as well. That's a fact.

Botham's RPI is 32. Jadeja's is 30.5. Their respective averages are 33 and 38. Not outs boosts average but ignoring them and taking RPI is significantly worse. Jadeja scored everywhere to everyone while Botham shitted pants to WI. Tons are Great, but they also show a staggering lack of consistency.