Best Test opener of the 21st Century?

[Jayro]

@Xuhaib ,Not totally, check this fourth inning scorecard , characteristically dominated by Sehwag when on full song against Australia in Australia,scored a match saving 151 runs when the second best individual score was 20 runs, mind you he was returning into the team after being dropped so played pretty slow by his standard and yet had this dominance over a scorecard.

 

[BazBall21]

Became an Asian specialist after the 2007-08 Australia tour. 2001-2008, he averaged 43 outside Asia. Weaknesses were still clear though.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

In India 2001, all good knocks but 1st innings with less pressure. Even the 1st test, it was Gilchrist who stole the show after India were shot out for a low score.

SA 2002, good knock again but arguably the worst SA attack ever and had some nice support.

Gall 2004, yup a very fine knock under pressure, I agree.

Oval 2005, this is a strange example since this knock is used to criticize him. It was a good batting pitch but he batted unusually slowly to save his career, and he and Langer strangely took the light after tea on the second day which killed time in the game.

2006 SA, good knock again but was this really a pressure situation? SA were shot out cheaply and not a particularly great attack.

Anyways, the point is not that Hayden never batted under pressure, but that his best usually came in dominating the opposition relentlessly, which is still great. I would say that Langer, though not as good an opener overall, was a better pressure player than Hayden.

Whereas with Smith, you had several knocks where if he didnt score in those situations, SA would almost certainly have lost.

It doesn't matter if it's the first innings. If your team is 5 down for not many in the first dig and travelling by 80 runs in the subcontinent (especially as a non subcontinent team) then that would be considered "under pressure". If you fail your team falls behind in the match and your team has to chase in the 4th innings on a turning track.

Yes Gilchrist played well but had Hayden gotten out cheaply then Gilchrist would've been at the crease in at 6/50, batting with the tail. instead of 5/99 with a set batsman.

All of the same critiques that you had for Hayden's innings could easily be applied to Smith's "pressure innings". I.e. weak attacks, help from other batsmen.

New Zealand was a weak team without Bond, Australia in 2008 had lost McGrath and Warne (Amla, de Villiers, Kallis, Duminy also made contributions), Australia was the weakest it had been in years by 2011 and England in 2008 were still reeling off losing the Ashes 5-0 and went onto lose a Test series to the West Indies shortly after that series.

There were other examples like Sharjah 2002, MCG 2006 vs England, the 4th innings of the Bangladesh Test where Bangladesh almost beat Australia where Hayden massively contributed to wins but I only posted the examples that were comparable to Smith's 4th innings pressure innings.

Just because Hayden was an enforcer doesn't mean he wasn't just as (or more) capable of scoring runs under pressure. Hayden played less Tests, in a stronger side so those circumstances were few and far between.

 

[subshakerz]

Was Sehwag really useless away?

I know he got worse later on as he got even more gung but I remember making some big scores away 2001-2008ish that 7-8 years of good output

Well, away from home includes SL, Pakistan and Australia, where he would do well.

Even in SA and Eng, he did ok on his first tours there.

It's more about him being useless, which is an exaggeration somewhat, in Eng, NZ and SA as an opener.

 

[BazBall21]

Certainly a liability. 2017 onwards outside Asia would be a struggle for Sehwag. Also, while I think Smith was exceptional under pressure, Hayden had a lot of self-belief and was probably fine at absorbing pressure situations/occasions too, just arguably not as good as Smith at that. The times of struggle Hayden experienced during his Test career were more down to his high bat-lift causing him to play earlier than some against swing and seam movement than anything else.

 

[BazBall21]

I love Graeme Smith and due to the way he led from the front as Captain for eleven years, often delivering when the odds were against him, he feels like more of a titan of the game than Hayden and that doesn't really bother me. But I do think Hayden just about edges it as the better bat. Sehwag is below those two and Cook probably a tier below Sehwag.

 

[subshakerz]

Outside of raw output, averaging 50 plus or near over a career, I think the most important criteria for a modern day ATG batsman to be adaptable, which means skill against bounce, swing and spin.

In modern day terms, that means scoring in Australia, scoring in at least two of SA/NZ/Eng and at least two of SL/Pakistan-UAE/India. A batsman who fails at this for me, assuming he toured all these countries, I will view as lacking in a major part of their game. By scoring I would say averaging at least 40 plus over a large enough data set. I will admit I am a bit harsh for bad records in Australia and England due to their historical significance.

Both Hayden and Sehwag lack in Eng/NZ/SA whereas Smith is borderline in Australia. I am not so bothered by Smith's record at home since he has already proven himself in NZ and Eng against the moving ball.

 

[srbhkshk]

Certainly a liability. 2017 onwards outside Asia would be a struggle for Sehwag.

Fully agree.

 

[h_hurricane]

I disagree that Sehwag was a tier below Hayden. Many will rate Hayden higher, and that is a respectable opinion, though I rate Sehwag a tad higher.

They both struggled in some countries, but when you pick their overall record across all conditions it is pretty similar.

Take out BD and Zim, Sehwag infact averages 49.60 which is higher than his career average(49.34). Hayden's falls to 48.80.

As said earlier in the thread, Sehwag was a flat track bully, probably among the best ever in history in that aspect which counts a lot imo. Hayden was a flat track bully as well as a minnow basher.

 

[subshakerz]

I disagree that Sehwag was tier below Hayden. Many will rate Hayden higher, and that is a respectable opinion, though I rate Sehwag a tad higher.

They both struggled in some countries, but when you pick their overall record across all conditions it is pretty similar.

Take out BD and Zim, Sehwag infact averages 49.60 which is higher than his career average(49.34). Hayden's falls to 48.80.

As said earlier in the thread, Sehwag was a flat track bully, probably among the best ever in history in that aspect which counts a lot imo. Hayden was a flat track bully as well as a minnow basher.

Yeah, hard to separate Sehwag and Hayden. But to me, Hayden was clearly less hopeless in Eng and SA than Sehwag.

Hayden was a minnow basher but so was every batsman. Sehwag should be kicking himself for failing to cash in and average 50 plus.

 

[BazBall21]

Mainly due to non-big three schedule, Smith’s average gets the biggest minnow-bullying boost out of the four. I know the point will then be made about Smith’s better away record but Hayden isn’t a home bully imo due to his heavy-scoring in alien subcontinent conditions and their records against quality attacks are even.

Hayden was decent in SA. Definitely better than Sehwag there. Struggled in England, but more serviceable there than Sehwag.

 

[BazBall21]

Hayden and Smith a tier above Sehwag was possibly harsh in hindsight. The other two are clearly ahead in my view but perhaps not miles better.

 

[trundler]

Hayden is definitely not a tier above Sehwag. Sehwag is better at his strengths by an equal margin to how much worse he is at his weaknesses. Not being able to handle the moving ball puts me off both Hayden and Sehwag.

 

[Gob]

If Mathew Hayden from 2001 to 2008 played in the 90s, he would have done a lot better. Most people bring up his failures in 05 Ashes as a point to suggest that Hayden's success in 00s was fully down to lesser bowling attacks but people fail to remember he was struggling for a good six months prior to that series

His ton against ROW was a top knock. Ball was going all over the place in the first session

 

[Gob]

Ftr always felt you are in with a chance with Smith. Probably because of his dodgy 'looking' technique

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Hayden averaged like 75 in ODI cricket in New Zealand with a few 100s. Sehwag also averaged over 50 in ODI cricket in New Zealand with a few hundreds.

I know the response will be "ODI isn't Test cricket" but Hayden's poor in New Zealand in Test cricket seem purely circumstantial. He barely played there. The only country Hayden struggled in was England.

Regardless, splitting players based on their performances in New Zealand up until recent times seems pretty silly unless Shane Bond was playing. NZ were West Indies standard for a long time. I don't think many cricketers would view NZ as a top 4 country where runs are most highly prized.

Australia, Sri Lanka and South Africa had the strongest bowling lineups and Australia, South Africa and India were the strongest sides.

 

[Gob]

Also weird poll. Wasn't there a recent Hayden vs Sehwag thread where Sehwag won handsomely? So it looks like majority of the people who think Sehwag was superior to Hayden also seem to think Smith is superior to Sehwag

 

[Prince EWS]

Hayden averaged like 75 in ODI cricket in New Zealand with a few 100s. Sehwag also averaged over 50 in ODI cricket in New Zealand with a few hundreds.

I know the response will be "ODI isn't Test cricket" but Hayden's poor in New Zealand in Test cricket seem purely circumstantial. He barely played there.

lmao come on

The pitches for the 350v350 CB Series and the pitches for Tests in NZ during his career could not have been more different.

 

[BazBall21]

Ftr always felt you are in with a chance with Smith. Probably because of his dodgy 'looking' technique

That’s why I don’t take his record at home with a pinch of salt like most people do despite SA being so tough for openers

 

[Gob]

lmao come on

The pitches for the 350v350 CB Series and the pitches for Tests in NZ during his career could not have been more different.

From memory, Hayden's only series in nz in this century was the one in 05 (before the famous ashes series). Wickets weren't very helpful in that series IIRC

The ones in 2000 series were very helpful but can't remember who was opening with Slater. May well be Hayden