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Best English Batsman Since 1990?

gettingbetter

State Vice-Captain
You could even take it further than that I would say England haven't produced a great player since Botham who debuted in 1977. You could make an arguement for Gooch during the later part of his career which is debatable either way.

And yet there are still people who insist there is nothing wrong with county cricket. :blink:

As has been said even Zimbabwe have produced Andy Flower for goodness sake.
How often does a great player come around though? Guys like Thorpe, Stewart and possibly atm KP hold their own, but to say that they are greats would be pushing it. Probably the worst thing for England was probably a consistently an above average, average pace attack; guys like Caddick, Cork, Fraser were all solid, but never looked 'strong.'

As for CC, I think condensing the teams would be better, then there is the story about overseas players...
 

garypleavin

Cricket Spectator
How often does a great player come around though? Guys like Thorpe, Stewart and possibly atm KP hold their own, but to say that they are greats would be pushing it. Probably the worst thing for England was probably a consistently an above average, average pace attack; guys like Caddick, Cork, Fraser were all solid, but never looked 'strong.'

As for CC, I think condensing the teams would be better, then there is the story about overseas players...
I think we had a potentially great bowler in Gough but those match winning performances came round far too rarely for me. He had everythhing except height that you want in fast bowler.
 

gettingbetter

State Vice-Captain
I think we had a potentially great bowler in Gough but those match winning performances came round far too rarely for me. He had everythhing except height that you want in fast bowler.
Potentially though. Gough was no where near a Donald, McGrath, Ambrose and co of the 90s, good as he was - easily the best English bowler in the 90s, the whole bowling team just had that 10-20% missing.
 

garypleavin

Cricket Spectator
Potentially though. Gough was no where near a Donald, McGrath, Ambrose and co of the 90s, good as he was - easily the best English bowler in the 90s, the whole bowling team just had that 10-20% missing.
Also, Gough was the only different bowler of the team. Caddick, Cork and Fraser were all a bit too samey and Gough was the only feared bowler of the 1990's. Gough's bowling in the dead pitches of Sri Lanka in 2001(i think) was truely magnificent when everything was a against him. Yes I'd rate him below McGrath, Donald, Wasim and co but on his day he was just as good.
 

gettingbetter

State Vice-Captain
Thats the thing though, you could make comparisons to Thorpe and Gough being the stand outs in their fields during the 90s for England, while Hussain, Atherton alongside with Caddick and the others I mentioned were just solid cricketers. And then you have the below average cricketers like Butcher - sorry Rich, never rated him and the 'other' fillers England picked during that period.

England during the 90s simply appeared to have a team that could save Tests rather than win them, and we all know where saving Test matches gets you.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Fraser > Gough, easily. And both have in common the fact that they could have been so much more but for injury. Both of them missed loads of matches, and both of them lost calibre due to their injuries of times.

Fraser was England's best bowler of the 1990s, without difficulty, for mine.
 

chalky

International Debutant
:blink:

How on Earth can anyone honestly say Trescothick is even close to Atherton, or even the part-time opener Stewart?
Very easily he averaged more, scored at a quicker rate (not essential for an opener I know but still helps set up matches) , scored more century's per game & helped set up more victories & saved more games.

Also when their career's overlapped for 16 tests opening together Trescothick averaged more than Atherton.

I think the question should be how can anyone say Atherton is better than Trescothick?
 

chalky

International Debutant
How often does a great player come around though? Guys like Thorpe, Stewart and possibly atm KP hold their own, but to say that they are greats would be pushing it. Probably the worst thing for England was probably a consistently an above average, average pace attack; guys like Caddick, Cork, Fraser were all solid, but never looked 'strong.'

As for CC, I think condensing the teams would be better, then there is the story about overseas players...
Off the top of my head

Australia: Steve Waugh,Warne, Mcgrath, Ponting, Border, Gilchrist,
West Indies: Ambrose, Walsh, Lara, Marshall
Pakistan: Wasim, Waqar, Inzaman, Yousef
India: Dravid, Tendulkar, Kumble, Kapil Dev
South Africa: Donald, Pollock, Kallis
Sri Lanka: Murali, Sangakkara
Zimbabwe: Andy Flower
England?????????????


Great players seem to come around often enough for other countries who have less domestic infrastructure and less players than England.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Very easily he averaged more, scored at a quicker rate (not essential for an opener I know but still helps set up matches) , scored more century's per game & helped set up more victories & saved more games.

Also when their career's overlapped for 16 tests opening together Trescothick averaged more than Atherton.

I think the question should be how can anyone say Atherton is better than Trescothick?
Atherton played at a time bowling and catching were, TSTL, impossibly higher than that which Trescothick did.

Atherton was almost finished by the time he and Trescothick played together - the effects of the final cortisone injection were wearing-off in 2001, and his performances dipped.

Atherton > Trescothick in calender-year 2000.

And frankly, if Atherton had been dropped as many times as Trescothick has in his career and faced the bowling Trescothick mostly has 2001\02-2006 (and, of course, not had 1991-1996\97-1998\99-2001-style bouts of chronic-injury-afflictedness), I reckon he could easily have averaged 60.
 

chalky

International Debutant
Atherton played at a time bowling and catching were, TSTL, impossibly higher than that which Trescothick did.
West Indies notably have declined in Trescothick's time but other teams India for example & I would say Australia, who England play the most, have improved . I would agree that fast bowling in general as declined but there is no doubt spin bowling is a lot more prevelant. England tour the sub continent a lot more for example & Trescothick is a lotter better player of spin than Atherton ever was.

Atherton was almost finished by the time he and Trescothick played together - the effects of the final cortisone injection were wearing-off in 2001, and his performances dipped
.

His averaged dipped in 2001 because he faced Australia & was owned by Mcgrath as usual.

Atherton > Trescothick in calender-year 2000.
Trescothick didn't debut until August 2000 fact remains when they batted together against the same bowling in the same conditions Trescothick averaged slightly more

And frankly, if Atherton had been dropped as many times as Trescothick has in his career and faced the bowling Trescothick mostly has 2001\02-2006 (and, of course, not had 1991-1996\97-1998\99-2001-style bouts of chronic-injury-afflictedness), I reckon he could easily have averaged 60
I watched Atherton throughout all of his career he would never have averged 60 in any era I have seen.

The dropped catches arguement is a nonsense.

As for his back injury you can't judge a player on what ifs all you can judge him on is what he produced which was a good if not spectacular career in a poor team. Even saying that his performances pre injury are not that spectacular.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I reckon he could easily have averaged 60.
Atherton was a solid player and a big name when England batting was very weak. However, he was fundamentally flawed technically.

His powers of concentration managed to prevent these issues derailing his career, but to suggest he could average 60 is laughable.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I don't think he could have done it off his own bat against good bowling, but with the low calibre of bowling of late and the absurd amount of luck Trescothick has had virtually all career, I honestly believe he could have over a period of 6 or 7 years.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
West Indies notably have declined in Trescothick's time but other teams India for example & I would say Australia, who England play the most, have improved . I would agree that fast bowling in general as declined but there is no doubt spin bowling is a lot more prevelant. England tour the sub continent a lot more for example & Trescothick is a lotter better player of spin than Atherton ever was.
Nah, disagree, Trescothick's actually a very poor player of the ball turning across or away from him. He's just really become quite good against the ball turning into him. Atherton was actually a damn good player of spin too, IMO.
His averaged dipped in 2001 because he faced Australia & was owned by Mcgrath as usual.
It was nothing to do with that against Sri Lanka and Pakistan. If it'd just been Australia I'd agree with you, but it wasn't - and he was also losing fitness, terminally on this occasion.
Trescothick didn't debut until August 2000 fact remains when they batted together against the same bowling in the same conditions Trescothick averaged slightly more
Anyone could have averaged more than Atherton in 2001, he was no longer capable of scoring. That wasn't the Atherton who played for most of his career.
I watched Atherton throughout all of his career he would never have averged 60 in any era I have seen.
There's no way on Earth anyone can know that. I'd have said Matthew Hayden would never have averaged 60 in any era in 2000, too, but he did.
The dropped catches arguement is a nonsense.
It's not, I've produced clear facts in the Trescothick case.
As for his back injury you can't judge a player on what ifs all you can judge him on is what he produced which was a good if not spectacular career in a poor team. Even saying that his performances pre injury are not that spectacular.
I can judge him on what he produced when-affected-by-back and when-not-affected-by-back, and there's a very clear and substantial difference. When not affected, he almost always produced; when affected, he never looked remotely like scoring a thing (and sometimes dropped-out; just a shame he didn't ALWAYS drop-out).

Judging a player only on games where they weren't crippled is not using what-ifs. It's not a case of pre- or post-, the injury was with him since 1990 - it was just a case of there being 4 occasions when it was not manageable.
 

Jamee999

Hall of Fame Member
(Just answering the thread question)

In terms of talent, Kevin Pietersen, without a shadow of a doubt. Pietersen, Lara and Tendulkar are the 3 batsmen I've seen who just seem to find it utterly easy.

In terms of performance, Michael Vaughan, he laid into Australia during 02/03 Ashes, scored that century in the 05 Ashes, scored that magnificent century when he came back this summer, and as an English fan, he's a great batsman.

Only real candidates other than Vaughan are Thorpe and Atherton, but Atherton was more of a grinder, he never seemed to have that killer punch. Thorpe comes close to Vaughan, but Vaughan led from the front, he always seemed to be able to just do that bit more, and push together with the Bells or Keys, who weren't brilliant Test match batsmen but were able to push on in partnerships with Vaughan, because he stood up when he was needed. It's not something that can be shown with Vaughan, but his ability to lead with his batting was, and is immense. Vaughan isn't only a great captain in the field, he's a great leader.

I'm not de-valuing Atherton or Thorpe here, or even Alec Stewart, if our lineup had been Atherton-Cook-Vaughan-Pietersen-Thorpe-Collingwood-Stewart+bowlers in the Ashes 06/07, or in the Indian series last summer, we'd've done a whole lot better.

Don't really want to get into a debate here, I'm just doing this as a break from Coursework.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
(Just answering the thread question)

In terms of talent, Kevin Pietersen, without a shadow of a doubt. Pietersen, Lara and Tendulkar are the 3 batsmen I've seen who just seem to find it utterly easy.

In terms of performance, Michael Vaughan, he laid into Australia during 02/03 Ashes, scored that century in the 05 Ashes, scored that magnificent century when he came back this summer, and as an English fan, he's a great batsman.

Only real candidates other than Vaughan are Thorpe and Atherton, but Atherton was more of a grinder, he never seemed to have that killer punch. Thorpe comes close to Vaughan, but Vaughan led from the front, he always seemed to be able to just do that bit more, and push together with the Bells or Keys, who weren't brilliant Test match batsmen but were able to push on in partnerships with Vaughan, because he stood up when he was needed. It's not something that can be shown with Vaughan, but his ability to lead with his batting was, and is immense. Vaughan isn't only a great captain in the field, he's a great leader.

I'm not de-valuing Atherton or Thorpe here, or even Alec Stewart, if our lineup had been Atherton-Cook-Vaughan-Pietersen-Thorpe-Collingwood-Stewart+bowlers in the Ashes 06/07, or in the Indian series last summer, we'd've done a whole lot better.

Don't really want to get into a debate here, I'm just doing this as a break from Coursework.
TBH, get-into-a-debate-worthy or not... :p

So far in his Test career, Vaughan has still always disappointed me. His 2007 was, for mine, his best season, the first time he truly fulfilled all expectations I've ever had of him. Better than 2002\03? Yes. In 2002\03 he played one very fine innings at The SCG to do more than anyone to avert the whitewash. But apart from that, I've really never thought he did much of note. His 177 in the Second Test should have been no more than 19 (in common with most of his large scores the previous summer), and his 145 at The MCG came when the game was already lost. Also, let's not forget that the bowling-attacks he scored against in the final two Tests were very weak indeed: Warne was injured, McGrath was injured, Gillespie was injured in one of them. The bowlers were the likes of MacGill, Lee and Bichel, not remotely close to the standard of those they replaced.

In 2007, I honestly feel he played better.

And Vaughan's form as an opening batsman at large - the run of luck in 2002 aside - was wholly woeful. Now then, I was never an advocate of him opening so I don't hold that greatly against him. But the fact is he wasted 3 prime years at the top of the order. And he then wasted another in 2005 when his form was awful, then another in 2006 when he was injured (obviously, not any fault of his, but a sad waste nonetheless).

Basically, Vaughan's career in 2001 was still highly promising. But until 2007, none of those promises were fulfilled, and then he wasted ANOTHER series by going back to the top of the order. Let's hope the next 2 or 3 years bring some more fulfillment. Then I'll start to consider him in Thorpe's league.

Regarding Atherton - he was mostly before your time I'd guess. He never had what some might regard as the "killer punch" - virtually none did of his time did. Bowlers like Donald, Ambrose, Wasim Akram, McDermott, de Villiers, McGrath, Waqar Younis, Fleming, Gillespie, Pollock, Walsh, all merchants he faced in their prime powers, were nigh-unkillable. If you tried, there was a substantial chance you'd not get very many. Atherton did a superlative job of scoring very well against these bowlers, and had he not played when patently unfit on two or three occasions, his record would stack-up much better.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Hmmnn.........anyway can someone provide a link or links to the main Hayden/Hussain debate please?
Thank you.

I wouldn't normally quote my own post but when I asked for links to the debate I was told there wasn't one, just threads where Hussain's name happened to crop up. But whilst catching up on several months that I missed I've just discovered there is one. I might even read it one day.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Nah, I did mention it:
There was a thread where a million and one misunderstandings were thrown back and forth, which doubtless someone will unearth. Reading it would be a waste of time, however.
There's been countless other threads where the Hayden issue has cropped-up, however, and Hussain is simply, as I mentioned, one of a very large number of people who could be used in such a comparison.
 

johnbull

Cricket Spectator
first post

kp is the only one at the mo. although one of my first memories of watching cricket is gooch's 333
 

haroon510

International 12th Man
Marcus trescothick was good.. but his career was ended eairly..

i believe Kevin Pieterson would be abslute best by the end of his career..
 

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