Best Attack

[OverratedSanity]

But aren't they? Clearly recognized as the best 3 ever

"Clearly" doesn't mean margin between them is big. Virtually no one thinks that.

 

[subshakerz]

And I don't want to keep repeating this but outside of Pakistan and minnow SL, Imran didn't excel at an ATG level in any other country. So either every game is in Pakistan or there's a downgrade.. if you go Steyn, less of a step down, but then the referenced drop off in batting. But with Marshall and Warne, is it a liability and is it worth having the variety over Hadlee.
Or do you keep Hadlee, but drop McGrath and bring in Steyn for the variety but still keep the solid no. 8.

I don't know why you keep repeating this. It is just untrue given that Imran was ATG in the WI.

It's also annoying that you seem blind to the away flaws for every other ATG pacer except Imran.

Imran IMO has very credible cases for better away records than Steyn and Ambrose. Even Hadlee's record can be argued with given that he didn't succeed in the WI with only one moderate series there.

Even if you don't buy that, painting Imran as having unique away flaws is just objectively wrong.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Imran IMO has very credible cases for better away records than Steyn and Ambrose. Even Hadlee's record can be argued with given that he didn't succeed in the WI with only one moderate series there.

Even if you don't buy that, painting Imran as having unique away flaws is just objectively wrong.

I'd take Steyn's away record over Imran/Ambrose but I agree with the rest. To describe their away records as "not setting the world on fire" is just disconnected from reality.

 

[subshakerz]

I'd take Steyn's away record over Imran/Ambrose but I agree with the rest. To describe their away records as "not setting the world on fire" is just disconnected from reality.

And of course we know why. Trashing Imran's away record is his way of discrediting his home record.

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn and Hadlee have got quite a lot of overlap in MO. Don't really want to pick both. Purely as bowlers, I'd go Marshall, Mcgrath,
Steyn. But you would be better off in both batting and bowling by ditching a bat for someone like Miller and playing Hadlee and Imran.

How? Completely different bowlers IMO.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I don't know why you keep repeating this. It is just untrue given that Imran was ATG in the WI.

It's also annoying that you seem blind to the away flaws for every other ATG pacer except Imran.

Imran IMO has very credible cases for better away records than Steyn and Ambrose. Even Hadlee's record can be argued with given that he didn't succeed in the WI with only one moderate series there.

Even if you don't buy that, painting Imran as having unique away flaws is just objectively wrong.

imran was ATG in WI.

 

[Bolo.]

How? Completely different bowlers IMO.

RA outswing as main weapon. Not too tall.

That slower channel bowling swinging away from the right hander that Steyn used to sometimes do later career looked a lot like some footage I've seen of Hadlee.

Not too similar. But not completely different like Steyn/Mcgrath.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Agree with Subs here, third attack has the best assortment of skills for me. Although picking an attack without Steyn breaks my heart

 

[kyear2]

You always need extra batting. Otherwise just pick Marshall, Mcgrath and Steyn for what should be the strongest complementary attack.
Recognised as the best 3 bowlers, not players. Imran exists.

Even just in bowling, I don't think there is a big gap. Maybe for someone like Akram or worse. But for Steyn and to a lesser extent Imran, the gap is close enough for me to sacrifice a tiny bit of quality in favour of variety.

Now seeing this part part sorry.

No you don't, lol.
There are only four bowlers and their primary job is to bowl out the opposition. So you try to attain the best balance possible, taking into account bowling strength, variety / complimentary styles and finally batting. You just don't stick the best batters together, at least not in my opinion .

And Hadlee, Marshall and Warne were all decent or way better with the bat, even Steyn had a couple half centuries.

 

[kyear2]

I don't underrate Hadlee. He was plenty good without reverse.

I do think that picking an entire lineup without good reverse would be a mistake though. There are plenty of times (conditions and ball dependent) when everything else is extremely ineffective in relation.

I agree to a certain extent, the more weapons you have at your disposal the better, much better actually and Steyn, Imran and Wasim deserve credit for being noted proponents of same, even Pat Cummins.

But two points, I know and even heard Wasim mention that Malcolm was the first of the West Indian pacers to use reverse, and taking into account that most modern pacers and two quite Imran, every teenager in Pakistan knows how to reverse the ball, unlikely that Hadlee wouldn't pick it up in an instant. But yes, the guys referenced does deserve credit and some deference in regards to their ability to reverse it.

But also remember that these guys were ridiculously successful, and Hadlee and Marshall had noted spells with the older ball so to suggest that they wouldn't be successful is not entirely true. Plus as someone brought up a few weeks back, the ball used to reverse swing, it's was a matter of understanding the why, placing the ball accordingly and maximizing it.
I'll look for the reference, but recall someone saying it took Marshall less than an over to get it. He learned the cutter from DK, but can't recall who taught him reverse.

But yes, the best compromise taking all 3 factors isn't as simple as believed and finding the best balance is optimal taking all 3 factors into account.
For me the best three bowlers would take the batting into account, adding in Imran adds the variety and batting, but lowers the bowling a tad, adding in Steyn lowers the batting, but lessens the bowling drop off. Dropping McGrath for Steyn, gives the batting and variety but looses McGrath's accuracy, seam and bounce.
Just depends on what you prefer, among these guys no absolutely wrong answer. Plus again, Marshall and Warne does give credibility to the tail, they were more than useful batsmen.

 

[kyear2]

I don't know why you keep repeating this. It is just untrue given that Imran was ATG in the WI.

It's also annoying that you seem blind to the away flaws for every other ATG pacer except Imran.

Imran IMO has very credible cases for better away records than Steyn and Ambrose. Even Hadlee's record can be argued with given that he didn't succeed in the WI with only one moderate series there.

Even if you don't buy that, painting Imran as having unique away flaws is just objectively wrong.

He averaged 25 in the Caribbean, that's really good, that's not ATG, especially taking into account how reduced the batting was in '88, but we can agree to disagree.
How does he have a better overseas record to Ambrose, not that it matters because he's not even included in this comparison. Steyn also had a better overseas record considering that Steyn played in the dead pitch era and all the away matches were on roads and he still bettered Imran everywhere but England. Imran played in an era where England, Australia, NZ were all supposedly better and more conducive to pace.
Even in this truncated sample size, he still averaged 6 better at home than away. No other great pacer in that era had anything close to a split that large. Morning remotely close.

We're looking at 8 bowlers up for 4 spots. Take the names away, one is deemed the worst of those available but easily the best batsman. Marshall and McGrath are easily agreed to be the best two bowlers, and Hadlee being an easy third while also being a really good bat. You can't say any of them were bad with the old ball as they all had better records than Imran and Steyn, and Hadlee especially worked throughout the innings with the old ball.
In a team stacked to the gills with batting down to 7 (with Maco and Warnie again being competent), and you're facing a great batting lineup, you want the best bowlers. Even as @Bolo referenced, the best bowling combination, taking variety into account is probably Marshall, McGrath, Steyn, Warne, walk with Hadlee as batting depth insurance and you're golden...

Not saying Imran is a bad choice, he isn't mine, but I opened by saying there's no bad choices.

But Imran is analogous chosing Hammond over Sachin because he's automatic at 1st ands yet another bowler. I can also argue with a touring squad of Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn, Warne and Muralitharan having a cordon is considerably important than stacking the tail, because that's where they all got their wickets. Do we think Glenn has the numbers he had without some.of the greatest ever in his cordons, I've posted enough examples for you to see for yourself how Waugh, Taylor and co helped to elevate him, same goes for literally all the rest here. Plus having Hammond as a 6th option helps all the bowlers and eases the rotation. But sometimes you have to go with the best specialists.

Again, there's no bad choices, I believe all 4 are viable, just preference and priorities.

 

[subshakerz]

I agree to a certain extent, the more weapons you have at your disposal the better, much better actually and Steyn, Imran and Wasim deserve credit for being noted proponents of same, even Pat Cummins.

But two points, I know and even heard Wasim mention that Malcolm was the first of the West Indian pacers to use reverse, and taking into account that most modern pacers and two quite Imran, every teenager in Pakistan knows how to reverse the ball, unlikely that Hadlee wouldn't pick it up in an instant. But yes, the guys referenced does deserve credit and some deference in regards to their ability to reverse it.

But also remember that these guys were ridiculously successful, and Hadlee and Marshall had noted spells with the older ball so to suggest that they wouldn't be successful is not entirely true. Plus as someone brought up a few weeks back, the ball used to reverse swing, it's was a matter of understanding the why, placing the ball accordingly and maximizing it.
I'll look for the reference, but recall someone saying it took Marshall less than an over to get it. He learned the cutter from DK, but can't recall who taught him reverse.

It's not just about being able to learn reverse, it's about having an action and pace that maximises its effect. Steyn would be far more destructive with reverse than Cummins can ever be.

Now seeing this part part sorry.

No you don't, lol.
There are only four bowlers and their primary job is to bowl out the opposition. So you try to attain the best balance possible, taking into account bowling strength, variety / complimentary styles and finally batting. You just don't stick the best batters together, at least not in my opinion .

And Hadlee, Marshall and Warne were all decent or way better with the bat, even Steyn had a couple half centuries.

We are making mountains out of molehills when it comes to the differences between the top half dozen pacers. The idea that you can ignore a test quality bat among them is silly and in the real world nobody will entertain the idea.

 

[Bolo.]

I agree to a certain extent, the more weapons you have at your disposal the better, much better actually and Steyn, Imran and Wasim deserve credit for being noted proponents of same, even Pat Cummins.

But two points, I know and even heard Wasim mention that Malcolm was the first of the West Indian pacers to use reverse, and taking into account that most modern pacers and two quite Imran, every teenager in Pakistan knows how to reverse the ball, unlikely that Hadlee wouldn't pick it up in an instant. But yes, the guys referenced does deserve credit and some deference in regards to their ability to reverse it.

But also remember that these guys were ridiculously successful, and Hadlee and Marshall had noted spells with the older ball so to suggest that they wouldn't be successful is not entirely true. Plus as someone brought up a few weeks back, the ball used to reverse swing, it's was a matter of understanding the why, placing the ball accordingly and maximizing it.
I'll look for the reference, but recall someone saying it took Marshall less than an over to get it. He learned the cutter from DK, but can't recall who taught him reverse.

But yes, the best compromise taking all 3 factors isn't as simple as believed and finding the best balance is optimal taking all 3 factors into account.
For me the best three bowlers would take the batting into account, adding in Imran adds the variety and batting, but lowers the bowling a tad, adding in Steyn lowers the batting, but lessens the bowling drop off. Dropping McGrath for Steyn, gives the batting and variety but looses McGrath's accuracy, seam and bounce.
Just depends on what you prefer, among these guys no absolutely wrong answer. Plus again, Marshall and Warne does give credibility to the tail, they were more than useful batsmen.

I read and article the other day that suggested Marshall learned to control reverse at the tail end of his career. I want more than this.

It's not that quality bowlers can't bowl good old ball spells without reverse. But it's an incredibly powerful tool. I want cutters too. But that department is already covered, and it is an additional skill set, not a replacement. There will be times when only 1 is working.

Now seeing this part part sorry.

No you don't, lol.
There are only four bowlers and their primary job is to bowl out the opposition. So you try to attain the best balance possible, taking into account bowling strength, variety / complimentary styles and finally batting. You just don't stick the best batters together, at least not in my opinion .

And Hadlee, Marshall and Warne were all decent or way better with the bat, even Steyn had a couple half centuries.

OFC you need extra batting. Unless you are consistently hammering your opponents, in which case it doesn't really matter which of the above bowlers you pick.

If you recognize the value of 1 tailender who can bat, you should recognize the value of 2. It's the same principle. I think their bowling was good enough. If you don't, cool, go for more bowling.

I don't get why anyone would go for more bowling by picking Steyn and Mcgrath though. 3 ARs is a pretty substantial batting upgrade on those 2 + a bat, and a bowling upgrade IMO (although it's less clear how it would play out).

IMO, there is no sacrifice in bowling quality by picking Hadlee. Imran complements Marshall and Hadlee better than anyone except maybe Akram. But he's a step down in both batting and bowling.

 

[smash84]

Now seeing this part part sorry.

No you don't, lol.
There are only four bowlers and their primary job is to bowl out the opposition. So you try to attain the best balance possible, taking into account bowling strength, variety / complimentary styles and finally batting. You just don't stick the best batters together, at least not in my opinion .

Yes, always conveniently forget, in cricket everyone must bat but not everyone must bowl in order for a result to be achieved. It is by design. Hence bowling all rounders are inherently more valuable especially if they are ATG fast bowlers. It's not too difficult to understand.

Marshall and Warne were all decent or way better with the bat, even Steyn had a couple half centuries.

Did you ever watch them bat?

 

[subshakerz]

He averaged 25 in the Caribbean, that's really good, that's not ATG, especially taking into account how reduced the batting was in '88, but we can agree to disagree.
How does he have a better overseas record to Ambrose, not that it matters because he's not even included in this comparison. Steyn also had a better overseas record considering that Steyn played in the dead pitch era and all the away matches were on roads and he still bettered Imran everywhere but England. Imran played in an era where England, Australia, NZ were all supposedly better and more conducive to pace.
Even in this truncated sample size, he still averaged 6 better at home than away. No other great pacer in that era had anything close to a split that large. Morning remotely close.

Quick question: Hadlee took 70 wickets in 14 tests in England @24.9 and McGrath took 29 wickets in 8 tests in SA @23. Did they meet ATG standards in these countries? Yes or no?

 

[smash84]

The lengths that kyear2 will go to prove that Imran doesn't deserve an ATG status at all is funny

inb4, he says, "I consider him an ATG, he is just outside my top 5, but you can easily place him anywhere from top 10 to top 100. But the gap between the top 3 and top 5 is extremely small. The gap gets really big when you come down to number 6 and then again becomes minuscule onwards"

 

[OverratedSanity]

Quick question: Hadlee took 70 wickets in 14 tests in England @24.9 and McGrath took 29 wickets in 8 tests in SA @23. Did they meet ATG standards in these countries? Yes or no?

McGrath actually only averaged 27 @ a little over 3 wickets per match vs SA, who were usually the best opposition in his career.

If we're nitpicking Steyn and Imran's 27-28 averages in certain countries to say their away records weren't that good, why is McGrath having a merely ok record vs the strongest opposition of his era never mentioned? I am not trolling, this is a serious question.

 

[Bolo.]

McGrath actually only averaged 27 @ a little over 3 wickets per match vs SA, who were usually the best opposition in his career.

If we're nitpicking Steyn and Imran's 27-28 averages in certain countries to say their away records weren't that good, why is McGrath having a merely ok record vs the strongest opposition of his era never mentioned? I am not trolling, this is a serious question.

I always find it funny how many people pooh on Donald's record vs Aus and give Mcgrath a pass vs SA. It's mostly the same series, and Aus had stronger batting.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Without Considering Barnes,

Akram, Hadlee, Marshall, Murali

 

[subshakerz]

The lengths that kyear2 will go to prove that Imran doesn't deserve an ATG status at all is funny

inb4, he says, "I consider him an ATG, he is just outside my top 5, but you can easily place him anywhere from top 10 to top 100. But the gap between the top 3 and top 5 is extremely small. The gap gets really big when you come down to number 6 and then again becomes minuscule onwards"

That's his excuse: 'Oh wait but I put Imran as 6/7 best pacer' (the highest he can legitimately place Imran without losing face) therefore he feels it fine to discredit Imran in any way.