Battle #654684. Michael Atherton v Nasser Hussain

[Richard]

I've expressed my thoughts far more eloquently than I did in that absurdly rushed thread. As I've said more than once, a thousand misunderstandings were traded in that, and several people wasted 20 or 30 posts.

I also think people overstate the Hussain case: Hussain - who was the subject of that thread because he happened to be someone I mentioned in a throwaway line picked-up by the thread-starter - could be anyone who falls into the category of "good Test batsman" (from before 2001).

 

[Julian87]

LOL at Atherton and Hussain being better than Hayden. While we are on the subject, lets just clear up a few other matters shall we:

Geraint Jones > Brad Haddin
Andy Caddick > Glenn McGrath
Ashley Giles > Stuart MacGill (because he is a better batsman)
Ian Bell > Mike Hussey
Graham Thorpe > Ricky Ponting
Mark Butcher > Justin Langer
Mark Ramprakash > Damien Martyn

.

 

[BoyBrumby]

As a batsman I'd probably just have to go with Athers. Both were accumulators rather than stroke-makers and Atherton was a bit better at it. I think, but for his AS, his figures would’ve been a fair bit superior to Nas's. I do feel both possibly slightly underachieved in tests overall or at least didn't quite fulfil the early promise they were reckoned to have. Both were hailed as prodigies when they were initially selected & neither established themselves straight away. It was actually about 6 six years before Nas became an automatic pick.

Hussain infinitely better captain & commentator tho.

 

[Richard]

LOL at Atherton and Hussain being better than Hayden. While we are on the subject, lets just clear up a few other matters shall we:

Geraint Jones > Brad Haddin
Andy Caddick > Glenn McGrath
Ashley Giles > Stuart MacGill (because he is a better batsman)
Ian Bell > Mike Hussey
Graham Thorpe > Ricky Ponting
Mark Butcher > Justin Langer
Mark Ramprakash > Damien Martyn

What a series of highly odd contentions. Don't think anyone would ever come-up with any reasons to back those.

Oh... hmm... except nationality.

 

[Richard]

Hussain infinitely better captain

On that subject, it's very interesting how highly Hussain rates Atherton as a captain. He says - as, in very similar style, Atherton does about Graham Gooch - that he never really got the credit he deserved.

TBH, I can see where both are coming from. There's a hell of a lot to admire about Hussain as a captain and I don't have any hesitation in picking him as England's best since Brearley, but Gooch and Atherton both had much to recommend them too. They just didn't quite have the stars align for them the way Hussain did - though most forget how close it came to doing for both of them.

Unlike in the second half of the 1980s under David Gower and Mike Gatting, England actually played lots of good cricket 1990-1998, and could easily have had far different results. The defeats of the late-1980s were crushing and almost all completely comprehensive.

 

[BoyBrumby]

On that subject, it's very interesting how highly Hussain rates Atherton as a captain. He says - as, in very similar style, Atherton does about Graham Gooch - that he never really got the credit he deserved.

TBH, I can see where both are coming from. There's a hell of a lot to admire about Hussain as a captain and I don't have any hesitation in picking him as England's best since Brearley, but Gooch and Atherton both had much to recommend them too. They just didn't quite have the stars align for them the way Hussain did - though most forget how close it came to doing for both of them.

Unlike in the second half of the 1980s under David Gower and Mike Gatting, England actually played lots of good cricket 1990-1998, and could easily have had far different results. The defeats of the late-1980s were crushing and almost all completely comprehensive.

I have to say I don't remember much to warm the ****les under Atherton's reign.

 

[GIMH]

We did lead the Ashes 1-0 under Athers lol

 

[Richard]

I have to say I don't remember much to warm the ****les under Atherton's reign.

OK... in his 2nd Test in charge we beat Australia for the first time in 7 years, and beat a coherant Australia for the first time in 10.

In his first series in charge, we came within a dropped catch (in all likelihood) of drawing a series in West Indies for the first time in 20 years.

In his first full summer in charge we beat New Zealand and levelled a series against South Africa with one of the most sensational performances ever by an England team (Devon Malcolm's 9-for and a run-chase of 200 in 30 overs ).

In his second winter on tour we were within some bad light of heading into the final game of an Ashes at 2-2, something that hasn't looked like happening before or since for quite a while.

In his second summer in charge we credibly drew 2-2 with a still fairly strong West Indies side.

In his third winter on tour we were perhaps within an insipid second-new-ball showing of beating South Africa in our first series in the country since readmission.

In his third home summer we beat India, though the performance against Pakistan was rather forgettable.

In his fourth winter we beat New Zealand comfortably and were within 1 run of beating Zimbabwe.

In his fifth home summer we took a Test off Australia with The Ashes at stake, something that's only happened twice more (both in the same series) in the last 21 years and but for a dropped catch and a bad Umpiring decision could conceivably have won the series.

In his final tour we were within a lost toss, some rain and an unfathomable batting collapse (for which he had no fault BTW) of beating West Indies for the first time in 29 years.

Not really quite so bad as some paint it, to me. Outstandingly distinguished? No. But a damn sight better than many before had managed.

 

[BoyBrumby]

As I said then. Failed to win a five test series at all.

 

[GIMH]

TBF, did Nas ever win a 5-Test series?

 

[Richard]

As I said then. Failed to win a five test series at all.

Out of a whole 4 attempts...

No, not as you said at all TBH. The way you put it nothing of note at all was achieved.

 

[Richard]

TBF, did Nas ever win a 5-Test series?

Yeah, 1 of them, at home to West Indies. As had Alec Stewart, at home to South Africa 2 years previously.

Vaughan has won 2, both in a row, in 2004/05 and 2005.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, I would never forget that Stewart series of 98, great memories. Forgot we used to play 5 V Windies though, so forgot about Nas's achievement.

 

[Richard]

But for said Stewart series of 1998, it's possible - though not certain by any means - that I'd now have 52,930 less posts than I do.

Soon to be Posted by lots of people
Why oh why did England have to win that series?!

 

[James_W]

You'd only have 1 post? :O

 

[Lillian Thomson]

But for said Stewart series of 1998, it's possible - though not certain by any means - that I'd now have 52,930 less posts than I do.

Why? What happened? Anything to do with the Bob Willis suggestion that but for the weather and creative umpiring by a chap who arrived just in time for the toss, England would have lost 3-0?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Out of a whole 4 attempts...

No, not as you said at all TBH. The way you put it nothing of note at all was achieved.

Well it wasn't really, was it? We beat India & NZ at home, NZ away & tied a series with the Windies, which we'd also managed on their previous tour anyway. Nothing we wouldn't have reasonably expected to do anyway.

You point out a lot of ifs & buts, but that calls to mind nothing so much as the old chestnut about excuses being like arseholes, in that we all have them.

 

[Richard]

The point is, the ifs weren't there for many captains previously. Defeats had been comprehensive and crushing. Most of the defeats in the 1990s, under Gooch and Atherton, could very easily have not been defeats.

 

[Richard]

Why? What happened? Anything to do with the Bob Willis suggestion that but for the weather and creative umpiring by a chap who arrived just in time for the toss, England would have lost 3-0?

Well but for the weather it would very probably have been 1-1 going into those last 2 Tests in which Javed Akhtar gave us such a helping-hand.

Even despite the fact we'd probably not have managed the turnaround but for Javed's trigger-finger, it was still an exceptionally uplifting series and I do wonder whether I'd have gained my love of the game had we lost.

 

[DaRick]

Although I've only ever seen Nasser Hussain play live, I'll go for Mike Atherton, despite my relative lack of knowledge about both, by virtue of the fact that Atherton, as an opener, had to face off against some wicked new-ball pairings and his own back (?) problem.