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Basic questions

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Victor Ian

International Coach
I don't expect a baseball fan to use cricket terminology until well after they have learnt the game. Give a noob to the lingo a break.
Whether or not he is a troll I find some of his questions interesting.
All sports are great. That is why people play them.
As a matter of curiosity where would cricket rank in the world by supporter base? Having the subcontinent play means we have over 2 billion supporters. I figure soccer is no1. Where would baseball rank?
 

trundler

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Overs like that build up pressure. The batsman loses his patience and gets frustrated. Might tempt him into playing a loose stroke later on in hopes of scoring some runs to release the pressure. Plus I'm sure it was a great spectacle. That's all sport is about.
 

Bijed

International Regular
Overs like that build up pressure. The batsman loses his patience and gets frustrated. Might tempt him into playing a loose stroke later on in hopes of scoring some runs to release the pressure. Plus I'm sure it was a great spectacle. That's all sport is about.
Also, commentators (Australian ones more so) just always get excited about PAAACE!
 

cnerd123

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I was watching India vs. Australia test match, day 1, last night, and as it got to lunch time, Australia had Starc bowling. If I recall the over correctly there were four dot balls -- 88 mph bowls that nobody swung at but bounced over the wicket -- a single and a tapper for a dot ball.

And it sure looked like the batsmen were completely overmatched by the speed. It looked good on tv and it looked good on paper.

Here's what I'm not getting: What did it mean? The teammates, announcers and fans were exultant over this outcome. But what did he do to advance the team toward a win? He burned an over for the team and for himself, but did not get a wicket that would get his side closer to the end of the game. He didn't seem to be fooling any of the batsmen such that they were likely to bat themselves into outs later.

And while he was helping break up the pitch (which affects both sides), he was also softening up the ball and giving India more chances to play with a softer ball.

I am thinking India wouldn't be too disappointed with that aspect of their game once they hit lunch: Even though we can't touch him, Starc didn't do us any damage, and we are that much closer to not seeing him again in this game.

Please explain.
Pressure.

Cricket is a game all about pressure. Who can create it, and who can exert it.

To understand this, you have to understand what is going on in the players minds.

Every batsman knows that, eventually, at some point, he will get out. His innings will come to a close. Like death, it's inevitable. He might get out due to a dumb mistake, he might get out due to bad luck, he might get out because he get's an unplayable delivery. However it will happen, it will happen. And he knows that the success of his batting will be measured by how long he survives at the crease, how many runs he scores, and how much he advances his team's cause.

So as he faces the bowler, ball after ball, he is simultaneously looking to survive but also looking to score. A confident batsman feels he will never get out, and so he is more judicious in his stroke-play. He doesn't go chasing after half-opportunities, he waits for the right ball, and when he gets the right ball, he doesn't miss out. A nervous batsman doesn't believe he can bat forever, is acutely aware of his flaws, and as such, may try to pounce on scoring opportunities that aren't quite there, or not back himself in his strokeplay, playing with hesitancy that will cost him his wicket. And sometimes that comes off, and that doesn't. As much as it's a battle between him and the bowling attack, it is also between him and his mind.

As for bowlers - every bowler works in 'spells'. That is, they bowl a series of overs in a row. How long that spell will be is determined by many factors. Obviously how well they are bowling, but also their style of bowling and their fitness (Starc, for instance, cannot bowl as many overs in a row as a spinner like Lyon can, simply because his style is more physically demanding), and the strategies in place, and the match situation. So when a bowler is brought on to bowl, he knows he cannot bowl forever. He knows he has a brief window in which to make an impact on the game. So how will he go about it?

Well in a strong bowling attack, they will all hunt as a pack. They will see themselves as part of a bowling unit, with strategies and plans and roles, and will go out there and look to simply execute their job as well as they can for as long as they can. That is what Starc was doing. He was performing his role as a cog in the Australian bowling machines. That is why everyone was cooing about his performance, even though in isolation, that over doesn't look very meaningful. It had no real impact on the game in of itself, but seen in the broader context of Australia's strategy for the entire innings (testing the Indian batsmen's patience, inviting them to play loose drives, bowling dry to build pressure) it was excellent. As was more or less every other over in that innings.

But in a weak bowling attack, you will see a different dynamic. The 'star' bowler will come on to bowl with the goal of producing a wicket. This leads to a very different strategy of bowling - every single ball and over gets more focused attention, and all his plans will be set almost independent of what the bowler at the other end is doing. Depending on the bowler's skill and conditions, he may try to attack with every single ball, thinking short-term over long-term strategy, or he may bowl to a longer plan, but one that only extends to the length of his spell.

Now, the way a batsman approaches a bowler will also be tied into the way the bowlers operate. When a good bowling attack is bowling as a unit, a batsman realizes he can't just see off one particular individual and cash in on the rest. This has a marked effect on the way he approaches his batting. In this current Test, the way the Australians were bowling had some batsmen in the Indian lineup believe that they were going to get out sooner rather than later. And so they tried to attack the bowling, thinking they could put the pressure back on them. But they failed, and perished to the traps that were set for them expecting them to do exactly that. They failed to handle pressure. Che Pujara, on the other hand, choose to be patient and see off the bowlers, and looked to just score when the ball was in his strong areas, or when the bowlers missed their mark. He had confidence in his defence, and by not getting out, he put pressure on the bowlers to find a way to get him out, and that in turn created more run scoring opportunities. He won the game of pressure, scored a valuable century, and is getting praised by everyone for his grit, determination and patience. And his giant balls of steel.

But not every batsman has to absorb pressure like Che Pu to succeed. Many of the greats did what the Indians tried to do today, and take the attack to a good bowling unit, and rattled them in the process. It's the stuff of legends, but when it doesn't come off, it's terrible for your team.

And it's a totally different dynamic when a batsman plays an attack that doesn't function well as a unit, and that relies on one or two star individuals. You might see them play in an excessively defensive manner against said individuals, knowing full well that if they deny that bowler a wicket, there rest of the attack poses less of a threat. This then affects how the bowler bowls - like I said earlier, the bowler knows his spells are limited. He may lose patience and try too hard to get a wicket within his spell, and end up not bowling well, and thus concede runs in the process. Or he tries really hard and it comes off, and he tears a lineup apart. Or he plays it cool, and goes wicketless, and his team falls behind until he can come back to bowl. Or he plays it cool, and gets the wicket anyways. And the batsmen have struggles too - playing defensively against their nature could lead to them making a mistake, or missing out on scoring opportunities, thus putting pressure back on themselves. And trying to attack a weaker bowler could lead to a wicket through mis-executing a stroke.

It's a constant balance of attack and defence from all individuals, and it's all about absorbing and exerting pressure. This isn't even including the captaincy strategy (bowling changes, field placements), or reading the pitches and conditions. There is a whole range of possibilities and outcomes, and if you watch cricket long enough, you'd have seen everything happen. It's a crazy ****ing game. There are no right or wrong strategies, or right or wrong answers. There are bluffs, double bluffs, triple bluffs. The 'smart' decision can fail, the 'dumb' one can succeed. Some cricketers have thrived being aggressive and counter attacking, others have thrived being patient and gritty.

It's a fantastic game.
 
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cnerd123

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Yea, I mean the basics I think rodk is lacking here (that is assuming he isn't a troll) is the very fundamental premise of what cricket is. It's not a bat and ball game. It's a mind game that's played with a bat and ball. The fact that it's played over such long periods of time yet designed with a ruleset that means an individual's involvement in the game can just be mere moments is reflective of how it challenges your personality and character more than it tests your skill.
 

rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
Pressure.

Cricket is a game all about pressure. Who can create it, and who can exert it.

To understand this, you have to understand what is going on in the players minds.

* * * * *

And it's a totally different dynamic when a batsman plays an attack that doesn't function well as a unit, and that relies on one or two star individuals.
I get the concept of pressure, but why does it work at a professional level?

Isn't the definition of being a pro athlete that he or she is immune to pressure and psychological tactics and has a short memory for both failure and success as he or she goes about business? If Starc somehow disturbed or upset or scared the opposing players, maybe they should be looking for other work.

And isn't the pressure in this situation a wash anyway? Neither the batting team nor the fielding team is getting closer to the end of the game. Starc looked intimidating but accomplished very little. Maybe he's the one who should be worried he's not getting the job done.

Is there anything to the notion that these guys were simply feeling each other out? You didn't mention that, but early in any kind of game that involves defense, especially if the players are not familiar with one another (not that should be the case in a multimillion dollar sport) they test each other for weaknesses to exploit later. Was any of that happening?

And as far as not letting their best guys beat you, that should be pretty much a universal in any team sport. You cover him tighter in sports that involve that or you try to exhaust him. But isn't a national tour necessarily the all-stars from the competing countries? Aren't they all multimillionaires? Where are the weak spots in the unit to be exploited? It's not like you can put two guys on him to slow him down. A tactic of not allowing Starc or some other player to beat you lets the job to some other guy who is an All-star caliber player do that. You can't avoid damage from everyone on the other side, can you?
 

cnerd123

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Isn't the definition of being a pro athlete that he or she is immune to pressure and psychological tactics and has a short memory for both failure and success as he or she goes about business?
No the definition is they play sport professionally. IE get paid to play. Pressure is a factor in all top level sports, you're naive to suggest it doesn't exist at all. And unlike most sports you can't just execute skills in a bubble in cricket, for all the reasons listed before.

You've basically answered your own question about both sides being under pressure. Generally who cracks first loses, but great games are where neither side yields.

Feeling each other out happens. But not so much at high level cricket. The best time to take a wicket is when a batsman is new, and the best time to unsettle a bowler is when he starts his spell. Traditionally there is a feeling out period, but teams generally start games hot and in high intensity these days. Especially in a high profile series.

Plenty of weak spots in all cricketers and cricket teams. Money doesn't equal skill. Cricket is a complex sport, complete mastery is rare and basically unheard of. No such thing as perfect technique, only tradeoffs and compromise. Get stronger in one area, get weaker in the next. Thats why being adaptable is so important, especially since there is such a wide range of skills and conditions. No one has ever devised a one size fits all technique or methodology (though the greats get pretty close to finding a way to do that)

Australia have a pretty all star attack (which is what I mentioned) but many teams do not. And most teams going around today have pretty flawed batting lineups (for many reasons that we all discuss to no end)
 
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rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
No the definition is they play sport professionally. IE get paid to play. Pressure is a factor in all top level sports, you're naive to suggest it doesn't exist at all. And unlike most sports you can't just execute skills in a bubble in cricket, for all the reasons listed before.

You've basically answered your own question about both sides being under pressure. Generally who cracks first loses, but great games are where neither side yields.

*******

Plenty of weak spots in all cricketers and cricket teams. Money doesn't equal skill.
I'm disagreeing. Players who wilt under pressure shouldn't last long. Club teams that crack under pressure get melted down and redone. Americans really don't do national teams except for soccer, and there's no accounting for what crazy crap happens there.

As for money not equaling skill, I get that. Players are at different stages of maturity and seniority and that impacts their paychecks. But do national teams really not have enough decent players to fill out the roster with passable talent? If so, where's the flaw in the development system?
 

cnerd123

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You can disagree but you're wrong lol. Pressure is a factor in all top level sports, and in cricket it's one of the essences of the game. Athletes are humans not machines.

Plenty of passable talent, but passable means flawed. Perfectly flawless cricketers are a myth. No such thing as perfect technique, just tradeoffs and compromises. Adaptability and intelligence are vital. The game really is that complicated.
 

rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
What is the development system? Are you using travel teams playing in extremely competitive events from the time the boys and girls are 11 and 12? Do players join school teams that compete in high pressure environments? I pay multiple thousands of dollars for my kid to participate in nerve wracking events, often against much better teams, often without a lot of help from his teammates. Win, lose or draw, he is eager and ready for the next game because of short memory.

These events weed out the kids who get nervous, frustrated, lack discipline, lose concentration and so forth. Are cricket kids getting enough of that so they can bear up later?
 

rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
As a matter of curiosity where would cricket rank in the world by supporter base? Having the subcontinent play means we have over 2 billion supporters. I figure soccer is no1. Where would baseball rank?
IDK. I suppose most of it depends on where you are and whether you participate and whether the weather will support any given activity. Baseball is second in the US to American football, but is probably first in about 10 or so other countries, most specifically in Latin America, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. There are pockets of interest elsewhere.

Among other problems it has in drawing is that international play is problematic, and until now, betting on baseball has been mostly illegal.

Major league schedules use all the good weather, and pitchers are restricted in the winter because most of them max out when they play and are susceptible to injuries if they try to play all year. There is a cyclical world cup every 4 or so years, but it does not draw top pitching for that reason, and depth at a world level is restricted to about 8 or so countries after many players pass on it, so it is generally not deemed significant, and that is self-fulfilling.

It is also not in the Olympics because the major leagues have declined to stop the games or allow international call ups as in soccer; fans won't permit that by paying for games with missing stars.

As for TV, it is much harder to evaluate. Teams tend to be local rather than national in support. Ratings companies don't aggregate the viewership of 15 games in progress but shown only locally to fans within the geography of their favorite teams on a given night, so comparisons to singular events like Monday Night Football or the Olympics or even on appointment on Sundays for regular NFL games are apples and oranges. So it is very misleading to say that the Yankees have 400k viewers on a given night out of 162 when 29 other teams are showing their broadcasts to their fans by comparing it to 1b people watching the World Cup final staged with super hype as a singular event with no in sport competition.

As for fans in the seats, the majors sold about 70m tickets at about $50 or so on average for 80 home dates for each team. How does that compare to the 18m NFL tickets sold at about $100 on average for 8 home dates? IDK. Could they sell 70m if they played more often? Will id do better now that betting is starting to become legal? IDK.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Lol as if professional athletes are robots that they can't be under pressure haha!

Lionel Messi who is widely considered among the best footballers of this generation was visibly under immense pressure in the World Cup match against France.

If pressure isn't a factor in pro boxing then Mohammad Ali wouldn't be trash-talking throughout his career to keep the opponent nervy.

Someone who doesn't understand how all sports have the human element of pressure can't truly appreciate any game ever. (except video games played between two AI bots)
 
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rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
Lionel Messi who is widely considered among the best footballers of this generation was visibly under immense pressure in the World Cup match against France.

If pressure isn't a factor in pro boxing then Mohammad Ali wouldn't be trash-talking throughout his career to keep the opponent nervy.
Being under continuous attack by the other side so as to render a player ineffective is not the same as him getting flaky, nervous and too scared to perform.

Tom Brady is regularly pushed out of the pocket by 320 lb linemen who are bigger, faster, and stronger, and would like to do nothing more than flatten him like a pancake. This fact does not make him ineffective on the next play, or the next quarter or next game. He is immune to it.

I'd like to think boxers don't feel any pressure either. Maybe that is foolish of them, but it is the case. Guys went into the ring against Mike Tyson even in the days he was totally capable of killing them with one punch. Trash talking is for the audience. You can ask Connor MacGregor how well it worked for him against Khabib and Mayweather.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
'Sports psychology' wouldn't be a professional field if players never came under pressure. You have been saying many absurd things and this is no different.
 

TheJediBrah

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This is literally the most enjoyable thing in the world.

Seriously, rodk, go play a game of cricket and bat for four hours without trying to score a run. Watching the other team go through the full Kübler-Ross model over the course of an afternoon is one of the funniest things ever:

"He's not scoring lads, the wicket's coming."
"You are the ****ing ****tiest ****ing batsman I've ever ****ing seen you ****ing **** ****."
"Just ****ing get out already, you ****ing **** ****."
"Did you seriously just block a ****ing full toss? You ****ing **** ****."
"**** this ****, we're going home. You ****ing **** ****."
I find that really surprising that you'd get reaction, it's great when opposition bat like that. It can single-handedly win you the game when some spud makes 50 (200) in an 85 over game. Genuinely consider deliberately dropping a catch if he hits it.

The only situation I could imagine it getting frustrating is going for a second innings win but that is pretty rare
 
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