Ashwin vs Jadeja

[subshakerz]

2014 tour of SA, Ashwin failed with bowl allowing SA to almost chase down 458.

Ashwin didn't even take a single wicket that innings with the match set up for him.

They will excuse that and they will excuse any failing of his.

In the 2018 2nd test in SA, it was the 4th day on a cracked pitch and Ashwin was expected to run through SA and ended up bowling 30 overs for a single tailend wicket as SA scores more than enough to win easily.

 

[Xix2565]

Ok but this idea that in this era no spinner was achieving that match impact in SENA, and therefore it's somehow an unusually tall ask for Ashwin and Jadeja to do so, isn't true.

Folks here are rating Ashwin in the top five spinners ever and somehow want him graded on a curve for something quite basic.

All eras have required spinners to have favourable conditions in order to have a lot of impact since the more conducive the pitch is to spin the more difficult it is to actually face spin and thus the more effective spinners ****ing become. It doesn't matter where it is, if the pitches don't help spin for a lot of the game the spinners are generally going to be useless bar the occasional good day they have on unfriendly decks. Ashwin/Jadeja just haven't been as lucky to get curators who prepare more dry/spin friendly decks for SENA games.

Folks here for the most part have a functioning brain. I'm not sure you're part of that group along with a couple of other people here.

 

[Xix2565]

Dude, Ashwin is supposed to be considered the best spinner of the entire era. You are basing other lesser spinners not performing (though on several occasions spinners did in literally those same series) as an excuse for him to not perform when he is supposed to be better than all of them. It's a very odd argument.

At the end of the day, you can minimize it all you like, but 26 games is a big sample for him to not achieve that sort of match impact.

The other spinners overall were just worse. That they had their moments in those places doesn't change that. By a lot of metrics he's better. Rather than hyperfocusing on small samples we do actually consider the whole career here.

Ashwin didn't even take a single wicket that innings with the match set up for him.

They will excuse that and they will excuse any failing of his.

In the 2018 2nd test in SA, it was the 4th day on a cracked pitch and Ashwin was expected to run through SA and ended up bowling 30 overs for a single tailend wicket as SA scores more than enough to win easily.

Lyon failed across 4 ****ing Tests at home and gave up a series because of it. In fact, he did it 3 times! What a ****ing noob right?

2018 SA series was on greentops you numpty. Did you not see what Morkel and Ngidi did? Maharaj took 1-93 across both innings! Ashwin got 5-191 in comparison.

Are you suffering some sort of mental condition? Do you have dyslexia or some other reading disorder? Where is your brain, in the oceans? I'm not at all convinced you watch any form of cricket, let alone Tests. You seem like T10 would be a difficult sport to follow.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ok but this idea that in this era no spinner was achieving that match impact in SENA, and therefore it's somehow an unusually tall ask for Ashwin and Jadeja to do so, isn't true.

Folks here are rating Ashwin in the top five spinners ever and somehow want him graded on a curve for something quite basic.

Saying Ashwin and Jadeja weren't that great outside Asia is fine. But your refusal to admit how big of an impact they had in Australia in 2018-19 and 2020-21 to deliver two series wins just because they didn't pick up the arbitrary 5fer is kyear levels of dishonest. Since this very specific topic has been debated to death already, I'll say no more because it's clear there is no moving you from your opinion.

@Shady Slim posted the stats just a few days ago of touring spinners in Australia post 2010 and those two tours from Ashwin/Jadeja are the only ones that can even approach being called good. Kindly refer to it. Thank you for your attention in this matter.

 

[Randomfan]

Dude, Ashwin is supposed to be considered the best spinner of the entire era. You are basing other lesser spinners not performing (though on several occasions spinners did) as an excuse for him to not perform when he is supposed to be better than all of them. It's a very odd argument.

At the end of the day, you can minimize it all you like, but 26 games is a big sample for him to not achieve that sort of match impact.

If Ahswin had done very well in SENA as well then he would be competing with Warne/Murli due to being fantastic in all other venues. But no one puts him in that class. It's perfectly ok to point out negative, but it should be seen in context.

I am not bashing any lesser spinners. I was simply pointing out nature of pitches in exact same matches when Ashwin played. Matches when Ashwin did not play is irrelevant in discussing pitches.

I was correct in predicting you ignoring everything and write again about 26 games in SENA and Ashwin. I don't have much to add in discussion.

 

[subshakerz]

Saying Ashwin and Jadeja weren't that great outside Asia is fine. But your refusal to admit how big of an impact they had in Australia in 2018-19 and 2020-21 to deliver two series wins just because they didn't pick up the arbitrary 5fer is kyear levels of dishonest. Since this very specific topic has been debated to death already, I'll say no more because it's clear there is no moving you from your opinion.

I have repeatedly called that a good performance, especially 2021. He had a great spell in Melbourne first innings.

But folks here almost frame it like he was doing Bumrah 2024.

But in the macro, yes, no fifer in 26 games in SENA is a damning stat for someone touted as the best spinner of an era. Call I arbitrary all you like but I am responding to how he is being presented rather than grading on a curve.

 

[subshakerz]

If Ahswin had done very well in SENA as well then he would be competing with Warne/Murli due to being fantastic in all other venues. But no one puts him in that class. It's perfectly ok to point out negative, but it should be seen in context.

I am not bashing any lesser spinners. I was simply pointing out nature of pitches in exact same matches when Ashwin played. Matches when Ashwin did not play is irrelevant in discussing pitches.

I was correct in predicting you ignoring everything and write again about 26 games in SENA and Ashwin. I don't have much to add in discussion.

Ashwin often gets rated the 4th best spinner ever here despite a massive hole in SENA.

And no, I'm not ignoring your SENA point, I fundamentally disagree with it because you are not subjecting Ashwin to the level of critique that is merited.

 

[OverratedSanity]

But folks here almost frame it like he was doing Bumrah 2024.

No one says that, no.

But it might be one of the only series performances in Australia in cricket history where you could argue quite strongly that a finger spinner was the best bowler from the touring side in a series win (This is not any more arbitrary than your "Where are the 5fers" criteria).

 

[Xix2565]

I have repeatedly called that a good performance, especially 2021. He had a great spell in Melbourne first innings.

But folks here almost frame it like he was doing Bumrah 2024.

But in the macro, yes, no fifer in 26 games in SENA is a damning stat for someone touted as the best spinner of an era. Call I arbitrary all you like but I am responding to how he is being presented rather than grading on a curve.

You don't seem to act like it tbfh.

Ashwin often gets rated the 4th best spinner ever here despite a massive hole in SENA.

And no, I'm not ignoring your SENA point, I fundamentally disagree with it because you are not subjecting Ashwin to the level of critique that is merited.

His other competitors also have holes/lack of experience due to era. And O'Reilly's one of them tbfh.

You don't decide what's merited and what isn't. You have no sense of impartiality and fairness here. **** off with this.

 

[Randomfan]

Ashwin often gets rated the 4th best spinner ever here despite a massive hole in SENA.

And no, I'm not ignoring your SENA point, I fundamentally disagree with it because you are not subjecting Ashwin to the level of critique that is merited.

Oh, I do take away lots of points from Ashwin for not doing well in SENA. Otherwise, we would be at the same level as Murali and Warne who themselves did poorly in Ind/Aus in case of Murali and Ind/WI in case of Warne.

 

[subshakerz]

No one says that, no.

But it might be one of the only series performances in Australia in cricket history where you could argue quite strongly that a finger spinner was the best bowler from the touring side in a series win (This is not any more arbitrary than your "Where are the 5fers" criteria).

I remember when I first started arguing this and the common refrain back was 'well Ashwin won us two BGTs' as if he was the single determining factor.

He played one test in 2018, got six wickets in a game where Bumrah got six and Shami five.

2021, he took 12@28 in three tests, in Melbourne first innings bowled a class spell, Bumrah got four that innings too.

Overall a fine series performance but we need to have some perspective as we are comparing him to the ranks of the greatest spinners ever, not Warne or Murali but even below that, and from that perspective it doesn't stand out quite as much as your best away performance. It's a bit modest as your signature away achievement.

The point on SENA and fifers should be taken as a general one that it stands in stark contrast to his home record and that he couldn't even approach that level in the slightest despite many opportunities.

 

[subshakerz]

Oh, I do take away lots of points from Ashwin for not doing well in SENA.

Fundamental disagreement is how many points though. That's the essence of this argument.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He played one test in 2018, got six wickets in a game where Bumrah got six and Shami five.

2021, he took 12@28 in three tests, in Melbourne first innings bowled a class spell, Bumrah got four that innings too.

So, you're saying he did as well (honestly in these games he was better) as Jasprit ****ing Bumrah. Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? You've literally proved how good Ashwin was in those two tours lmao.

Spinners basically never have fast bowler level impact in a series like this in Australia.

 

[Xix2565]

I remember when I first started arguing this and the common refrain back was 'well Ashwin won us two BGTs' as if he was the single determining factor.

He played one test in 2018, got six wickets in a game where Bumrah got six and Shami five.

2021, he took 12@28 in three tests, in Melbourne first innings bowled a class spell, Bumrah got four that innings too.

Overall a fine series performance but we need to have some perspective as we are comparing him to the ranks of the greatest spinners ever, not Warne or Murali but even below that, and from that perspective it doesn't stand out quite as much as your best away performance. It's a bit modest as your signature away achievement.

The point on SENA and fifers should be taken as a general one that it stands in stark contrast to his home record and that he couldn't even approach that level in the slightest despite many opportunities.

The Adelaide Test was a close affair and you can certainly concede he did a lot to win that. It wasn't like other players did more than him.

In 2020/21 he was a strike weapon with the newish ball and could hold the runs down and still threaten the batters along with Bumrah. Especially vital given the other pacers were Shami (who got injured), Umesh (injured as well) and Siraj on debut. And also he saved the SCG Test with the bat.

The point on SENA and fifers is utterly stupid. It's about as intelligent a point as Trump's ranting and raving about DEI. You're making Donald Trump look like a genius at this point.

 

[Randomfan]

Fundamental disagreement is how many points though. That's the essence of this argument.

Points are large enough to bridge the gap between best in history and Ashwin for me. If majority in forum rate him as the 4th best in history then they feel somewhat similar. Most fans are aware of his not so great numbers over career in SENA.

You are free to see it as far bigger and rate him lower, but I was simply providing context for what other spinners were doing in the same matches when Ashwin played due to nature of pitches. His issue was not able to outshine them in SENA in same matches and that's a fair criticism. If was underperforming spinners who played in the same matches then I would have seen it as a far bigger issue and worth talking all the time like you do it.

 

[subshakerz]

Points are large enough to bridge the gap between best in history and Ashwin for me. If majority in forum rate him as the 4th best in history then they feel somewhat similar. Most fans are aware of his not so great numbers over career in SENA.

You are free to see it as far bigger and rate him lower, but I was simply providing context for what other spinners were doing in the same matches when Ashwin played due to nature of pitches. His issue was not able to outshine them in SENA in same matches and that's a fair criticism. If was underperforming spinners who played in the same matches then I would have seen it as a far bigger issue and worth talking all the time like you do it.

My no fifers in SENA point is more as a reference in comparing him to other spinners in the top say ten rankings of all time. If we claim Ashwin is an ATG then as an ATG this would be a sticking point.

 

[Majestic]

@subshakerz , how do you rate Williamson in Tests? Did you saw the other thread by @Rob Wesley on him?

 

[Randomfan]

My no fifers in SENA point is more as a reference in comparing him to other spinners in the top say ten rankings of all time. If we claim Ashwin is an ATG then as an ATG this would be a sticking point.

McGrath has grand total of 1 5-fer in Asia. It won't make any sense to use it as reference point and saying that 1 5-fer is difference in McGrath being an ATG or not. I don't have have Ashwin as an ATG spinner anyway. He falls short by a small margin but that's not the point.

I will simply note it as weakness and look at McGratgh still good average in Asia. Changing that count from 1 to 0, will not make much difference in stature of McGrath for me let alone making it a sticking point in comparing him with top 10 pacers. I still count it as negative when discussing ability to run thorugh sides in all conditions and yet I have Mcgrath as the top 2-3 pacers in history. You can acknowldge the weakness and still see over all picture.

Ashwin not able to outshine other spinner in SENA in matches he played is an issue for me, It's not lack of 5-fers. You are free to rank Ashwin in top 10 or top 20 or whatever based on over all output, no issue with that. I am having issue with argument you are using. It does not make sense to me.

 

[subshakerz]

McGrath has grand total of 1 5-fer in Asia. It won't make any sense to use it as reference point and saying that 1 5-fer is difference in McGrath being an ATG or not. I don't have have Ashwin as an ATG spinner anyway. He falls short by a small margin but that's not the point.

I will simply note it as weakness and look at McGratgh still good average in Asia. Changing that count from 1 to 0, will not make much difference in stature of McGrath for me let alone making it a sticking point in comparing him with top 10 pacers. I still count it as negative when discussing ability to run thorugh sides in all conditions and yet I have Mcgrath as the top 2-3 pacers in history. You can acknowldge the weakness and still see over all picture.

Ashwin not able to outshine other spinner in SENA in matches he played is an issue for me, It's not lack of 5-fers. You are free to rank Ashwin in top 10 or top 20 or whatever based on over all output, no issue with that. I am having issue with argument you are using. It does not make sense to me.

Lets just agree to a general point that Ashwin has a weak record in SENA. We don't need to rehash this.

 

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz , how do you rate Williamson in Tests? Did you saw the other thread by @Rob Wesley on him?

Hi. I think Williamson has some serious away issues. I will check the thread.