CricAddict
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In those 50 games, how many other spinners delivered that level of match impact? You know the reason but don't want to accept it.
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Ashwin vs Jadeja
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
The whole premise is fundamentally flawed. Jadeja is a batting all rounder who happens to be an excellent bowler at home , Ashwin is a spinner who can bat a bit.
They would never compete with each other. When India chose not to play Ashwin they essentially said they didn’t need a spinner.
They would never compete with each other. When India chose not to play Ashwin they essentially said they didn’t need a spinner.
I'm not going anywhere. I'll just take this as a concession from you regarding the away records then and move on.
subshakerz
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Jadeja isn't a batting AR.
Tilts at windmills again… he would make ANY test team in the world for his batting over seven years
1st 5 years- Bowl A/R
Next 7 years- Bat A/R ( or balanced A/R?)
I was highlighting Kumble averaging 38 if you take out Aus even in 00s( his better period). There is no SENA, Kumble wasn't that good outside of home. That's his total record. He did well in Aus in second half. We should acknowldge it but if bowler is averaging 38 taken together in all other venues in his better half then not need to come up with imaginary situations to hype the bowler.
Youj can ignore Ahswin's numbers looking good. That was not the purpose.
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subshakerz
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From what I recall in series where Ashwin Jadeja played, Lyon twice and Moeen Ali twice. Also Yadav.
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subshakerz
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Overall.clearly bowling is his stronger suit.
subshakerz
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You didn't even address my point on SENA, you just want to ignore it.
No need to speculate, we have actual record of all spinners in 26 tests played in SENA when Ashwin played,
On same pitches, pacers record,
In short: Spinners taken together: Avg 41 with 2 5-fers and pacers taken together avg 26 and 23 5-fers.
It's highly illogical to ignore this and ask how come Ashwin did not pick 5-fers in SENA. Pretty much no one did in those matches. Drawing parallel with Asian batsmen in SENA not scoring ton will be only valid when no one from any side scores ton.
Kumble did well in Aus in last 7-8 years of his career. It starts and end there. Do you have any other point? I have not heard any other point and I already admitted that Kumble did well in Aus in second half.
Did you happen to watch games in SENA where Ashwin was bowling? I find pacers far more entertaining and most matches played by Ashwin in SENA had good performances from pacers and I watched most games. I am not even a huge fan of Ashwin, but criticizing him for not piocking 5-fers in SENA means you did not watch those games. Spinners rarely did anything in those matches. If you did not watch those games, then you can see the contrast between spin and pace in those matches in stats above.
subshakerz
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He wasn't just asking about Ashwin but Jadeja too.
Let's go into the context, then.
In 2014/2015, Lyon took 12 wickets to win a game in that tough series for Ashwin.
In 2018, in the 2nd test, Lyon ripped through India in Perth and took 9 wickets though I am struggling to recall if Ashwin played that test.
Yadav took a fifer also in the last game, something Ashwin himself pined over.
In England, Moeen Ali won England games with fifers both in 2014 and 2018 in series in which Ashwin and Jadeja participated.
Thats four series in which they participated and the other spinners had match impact.
subshakerz
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I have given many examples of spinners playing in strong pace attacks in recent decades who did take fifers in SENA.
The point on Kumble was to compare his overall SENA record with Ashwin.
OverratedSanity
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Ashwin didn't play either of these tests, funnily enough. Him and Jadeja outbowled Lyon pretty routinely in the later tours which was one of the biggest reasons we won.
Ashwin didn't play that game and it was a massive road all things considered. Lyon bowled well but bowled a lot to get his wickets, just like Kumble in 2004 at Sydney only with a better pace attack.
Didn't play again, had injury issues during 2018 which needed treatment. That pitch also had uneven bounce and was pretty good for pacers.
Again, he wasn't fit.
Moeen also had the better pace attack around him for the conditions. Southampton in 2018 was where Ashwin's injury trouble started. In 2014 India weren't as competitive all things considered and it was their first tour there.
So are you going to answer me about whether or not you need medical attention for your comprehension issues? I'm still waiting because otherwise you've just conceded this whole debate to me since you can't actually make a point.
I replied to exact line quoting Ashwin. Can we stop this argument about Ashwin not doing well in SENA or picking 5-fers in SENA without considering pitches? When Ashwin played, spinners did poor in the same pitches SENA. Pitches were heavily pacers friendly. Yes, you can cite 1-2 examples, but that's not the way to make any argument. Over all numbers makes it very obvious even if you did not watch those games.
You can look at Jadeja separately. Ashwin and Jadeja are not interchangeable when making an argument. You can argue that Jadeja did not do well in SENA when other spinners did well by presenting numbers for that. That has nothing to do with Ashwin. I rate Jadeja far lower as spinner compared to Ashwin. Nothing to do with numbers, but simply having them bowl enough number of times.
I somehow suspect that you will forget this and again write Ashwin and SENA stuff after some time.
subshakerz
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Ok but this idea that in this era no spinner was achieving that match impact in SENA, and therefore it's somehow an unusually tall ask for Ashwin and Jadeja to do so, isn't true.
Folks here are rating Ashwin in the top five spinners ever and somehow want him graded on a curve for something quite basic.
subshakerz
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Dude, Ashwin is supposed to be considered the best spinner of the entire era. You are basing other lesser spinners not performing (though on several occasions spinners did in literally those same series) as an excuse for him to not perform when he is supposed to be better than all of them. It's a very odd argument.
At the end of the day, you can minimize it all you like, but 26 games is a big sample for him to not achieve that sort of match impact.