Ambrose v Murali v Steyn (rank in order)

[subshakerz]

In general, perhaps. When it comes to Warne and Murali, no not really.

Even Warne and Murali were notably less effective on 1st day pitches.

 

[Coronis]

Even Warne and Murali were notably less effective on 1st day pitches.

And even the ATG fast bowlers were notably less effective at times.

 

[Slifer]

You are bolding a line about the 90s. Donald and Pollock did ridiculously well in Aus in the 90s before going **** up in the 2000s. Waqar was probably the quick least suited to bowling in Aus ever. Walsh, IDK. Just sucked for some reason. You definitely would expect some quality quicks to fail against quality bats though.

Fair point, although I believe even if Ambrose played them in that 2000 series down under, I doubt he'd have done as bad as they did. He just always brought it in Australia for whatever reason.

 

[shortpitched713]

In general, perhaps. When it comes to Warne and Murali, no not really.

I know the two are freaks, but looking at scorecards these two did have more variance in their performance than most ATG pacers. Part of it was they were much more likely to bowl heavy overs in genuinely unhelpful conditions (especially Murali), than any pacer could ever dream of.

But to say they didn't have condition dependence is a misnomer. They just generally overcame all but the most poor conditions for spinners, and could compete with very good fast bowlers in them, hence them being freaks.

 

[subshakerz]

And even the ATG fast bowlers were notably less effective at times.

We are talking as a norm for Warne/Murali careers.

 

[subshakerz]

I know the two are freaks, but looking at scorecards these two did have more variance in their performance than most ATG pacers. Part of it was they were much more likely to bowl heavy overs in genuinely unhelpful conditions (especially Murali), than any pacer could ever dream of.

But to say they didn't have condition dependence is a misnomer. They just generally overcame all but the most poor conditions for spinners, and could compete with very good fast bowlers in them, hence them being freaks.

I rarely saw them be as effective on 1st day pitches unless it was a turner. It was kinda assumed they would get more in the game day 3 onwards. You would often see 3/90 and then 5/40 type of figures in 1st and 2nd innings they bowled in.

 

[shortpitched713]

I rarely saw them be as effective on 1st day pitches unless it was a turner. It was kinda assumed they would get more in the game day 3 onwards. You would often see 3/90 and then 5/40 type of figures in 1st and 2nd innings they bowled in.

"Conditions" is overall throughout all days the match lasts. When I say they "overcame", I mean generally they ended up with figures comparable to even great pace bowlers for average, in the vast majority of conditions.

But they would have more howlers too of like 1/130 or some **** too, and there's two reasons for that 1) They aren't complete freaks, and spinning conditions did matter to them 2) They bowl more, for longer in bad conditions than any pacer, because... well they can ( an in Murali's case he just had to, there was no other comparable choice )

Not to say they were extremely hard done by, because on the other hand, if there were really good spinning conditions, they could just bowl forever, and mop up with 5 or even 7fers so it ends up being something of a wash.

Still, I'd give a slight margin for overall conditions independence to an ATG seamer over even Murali and Warne. But you do have to balance that against the other advantages of carrying a bowler like Murali or Warne.

 

[subshakerz]

"Conditions" is overall throughout all days the match lasts. When I say they "overcame", I mean generally they ended up with figures comparable to even great pace bowlers for average, in the vast majority of conditions.

But they would have more howlers too of like 1/130 or some **** too, and there's two reasons for that 1) They aren't complete freaks, and spinning conditions did matter to them 2) They bowl more, for longer in bad conditions than any pacer, because... well they can ( an in Murali's case he just had to, there was no other comparable choice )

Not to say they were extremely hard done by, because on the other hand, if there were really good spinning conditions, they could just bowl forever, and mop up with 5 or even 7fers so it ends up being something of a wash.

Still, I'd give a slight margin for overall conditions independence to an ATG seamer over even Murali and Warne. But you do have to balance that against the other advantages of carrying a bowler like Murali or Warne.

I don't see any other advantage for a spinner except for being able to bowl super long spells. But those are often on dead pitches that end up being drawn most of the time.

Conditions independence to me is weighed heavier simply because I prefer bowler who are more regular threats. Top tiers pacers are as likely to set up wins as they are to seal them whereas Murali/Warne normally would deliver based on the advantages of the rest of the team to set up the game for them to play their role later on.

 

[BazBall21]

In the Ambrose vs Steyn thread, I changed my opinion after realising that Ambrose isn't really proven as much as in the SC.

Curtly better in Australia/England. Dale better in Asia. I have recently considered putting Steyn and Imran over Ambrose and Lillee because of the latter duo's relative lack of Asian credentials.

 

[Slifer]

Curtly better in Australia/England. Dale better in Asia. I have recently considered putting Steyn and Imran over Ambrose and Lillee because of the latter duo's relative lack of Asian credentials.

Are you willing to also put Walsh over both as well then?

 

[BazBall21]

Are you willing to also put Walsh over both as well then?

No because Walsh is nowhere near Curtly outside Asia.

 

[shortpitched713]

Only 9/24 voters have put either of Steyn or Ambrose above Murali. Interesting...

 

[Slifer]

No because Walsh is nowhere near Curtly outside Asia.

Actually the only place Courtney isn't close is Australia otherwise he's close to Curtly away in general and plus you add on the Asian exploits maybe Courtney should be say top 5?

 

[ankitj]

Ambrose is winning 14-10 against Styen
Murali is winning 17-7 against Ambrose as well as against Steyn

 

[BazBall21]

Actually the only place Courtney isn't close is Australia otherwise he's close to Curtly away in general and plus you add on the Asian exploits maybe Courtney should be say top 5?

Ambrose is miles ahead of Walsh in England. Walsh also has an iffy record in the first innings of tests when the bounce is generally more even.

 

[Slifer]

Ambrose is miles ahead of Walsh in England. Walsh also has an iffy record in the first innings of tests when the bounce is generally more even.

Hmmm ok.