All-Time World XIs: Discussion Thread

[subshakerz]

PEWS and I did that.

I subsequently requested a change of one of my selections, but yeah. And even including Bradman, the teams were fairly equal.

The top 4 picks on one side was Bradman and Marshall, and the other had Sobers and Imran, and also Gilchrist I think.

I'll look for it.

Please that sounds interesting.

 

[kyear2]

Same reason Steyn didnt bowl inswingers. He did what came naturally and got him more wickets.

Imran was so much more effective with the inswinger and his action really facilitated it. He was an incredibly tight bowler and didn't like to give runs away by bowling wide outside off and his MO was attacking stumps and looking for LBWs. Hence, inswinger.

Imran did have an outswinger but rarely used it as it didn't swing as much.

I don't think you need an outswing specialist in this attack if you have Marshall or Hadlee.

I know that you don't believe anything I say with regards to Imran, but for me, the outswinger is the delivery for test cricket.

Having a third bowler who hardly ever bowled it is a bit if a disadvantage. That and the effectiveness of his old ball bowling even when it didn't reverse is why I choose Wasim. He could move it both ways and gave batters fits.

As you said, it's not all about stats, skill set and intangibles.

 

[kyear2]

Wasim or Imran are both good choices for the 3rd seamer.

Honestly preferable choices.

 

[kyear2]

How can you call Smith elite is he regularly drops it?

I said elite skill set. And he does have one.

He comes forward to dying balls like the greats do, he can dive like the athletes, and convert half chances like the masters.

He also drops sitters like he's playing for the WI.

Doesn't mean he didn't have that elite skill set.

 

[centurymaker]

Heh, @Prince EWS Has the chance to do the funniest thing ever.

And make this whole exercise a good joke. Go ahead.

On top of that, as mentioned, because posters here are addicted to rankings and stats, you are going to end up with two fast medium line length pacers in your ATG XI.

You definitely lose a pace edge IMO. It all looks fine and dandy on paper but if you play this team against a Martian XI, expect Hadlee McGrath defensive tricks to be neutralised if there is a real sustained attack by aggressive bats and it will come down to Marshall having to bowl an express miracle spell.

Agreed. Almost no pundit selects both of them in their side. They were very effective bowlers but if we got a good old asian road, watch out.

Bowling is a collective effort. You invariably need variety in a 3 man pace attack. If a batter settles against McGrath, I don't think Hadlee would add anything much different as the 3rd seamer... Need a combination of height/pace/reverse swing/Left arm angle/awkward action... in order to disturb a batter who has settled against Marshall+McGrath/Hadlee.

 

[kyear2]

And make this whole exercise a good joke. Go ahead.

Agreed. Almost no pundit selects both of them in their side. They were very effective bowlers but if we got a good old asian road, watch out.

Bowling is a collective effort. You invariably need variety in a 3 man pace attack. If a batter settles against McGrath, I don't think Hadlee would add anything much different as the 3rd seamer... Need a combination of height/pace/reverse swing/Left arm angle/awkward action... in order to disturb a batter who has settled against Marshall+McGrath/Hadlee.

I agree with you.

In fact no pundit chooses Hadlee in general.

We've just looked at the stats and combined batting and bowling.

Imran, McGrath and Wasim makes infinitely more XIs than he does.

You need the variety, and McGrath was better at what they both did.

 

[subshakerz]

I know that you don't believe anything I say with regards to Imran, but for me, the outswinger is the delivery for test cricket.

Having a third bowler who hardly ever bowled it is a bit if a disadvantage. That and the effectiveness of his old ball bowling even when it didn't reverse is why I choose Wasim. He could move it both ways and gave batters fits.

As you said, it's not all about stats, skill set and intangibles.

In this case you already have selected Hadlee, one of the best outswingers ever, and Marshall, with a very good outswinger.

So you think the attack is best served by another outswing bowlers, that too without the new ball?

Or an inswing bowler who can keep it tight.

Imran by the way was much more destructive than Wasim with the old ball. He took two 8fers, three 7fers and 8 6fers in his career with reverse spells home and away, Wasim has one expensive 7fer in NZ and six 6fers in a longer career.

I loved Wasim growing up but his reverse while impressive aesthetically with nice variety wasn't the type to run through an entire lineup like Imran.

Still I would take Wasim over McGrath in this selection for third bowler.

 

[centurymaker]

I agree that we need someone who can bring the ball in, given that the first two picks are locked (Marshall and Hadlee)

 

[kyear2]

Almost all the great pace attacks had contrasting bowlers.

Wily Roberts, tall Garner, awkward Croft, pacy Holding

Swinging Steyn, tight Philander, tall Morkel

Metronome McGrath, swinging Gillespie, pacy Lee

Reverse leftie Starc, tight Hazelwood, pace and bouncy Cummins

That should be the pattern for an ATG XI.

I hope when I bring up the trends of the greatest teams in history later, you're just as open.

Because it definitely applies to how we "should" build teams and prioritize skills..

 

[capt_Luffy]

@kyear2 I genuinely don't get why you feel such a strong need to dunk on Hadlee. He is, to me and I believe a few else, a legit contender for the GOAT bowler. So him vs McG is very much a Sobers vs SRT case for most.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Anyways, in other news, Smith and Viv are equal, again. God, I am loving this.

 

[subshakerz]

I agree that we need someone who can bring the ball in, given that the first two picks are locked (Marshall and Hadlee)

I don't mind either Wasim or Imran for third seamer. Wasim gives the left arm thing and helps with the footmarks for Warne. I prefer Imran as a better bowler plus his runs.

 

[kyear2]

I agree that we need someone who can bring the ball in, given that the first two picks are locked (Marshall and Hadlee)

My issue is, I can't leave out who I think was legitimately one of the two best bowlers of all time.

Pigeon has the get the new ball.

But your points are very valid.

 

[subshakerz]

I register my protest by not voting

Dude get off your protest couch and vote.

 

[kyear2]

@kyear2 I genuinely don't get why you feel such a strong need to dunk on Hadlee. He is, to me and I believe a few else, a legit contender for the GOAT bowler. So him vs McG is very much a Sobers vs SRT case for most.

I fully understand that.

I just disagree. In general so do the pundits, and not one or two, he literally never makes these types of teams.

The only counter I've received to this is that it's because he's from NZ.

 

[kyear2]

Anyways, in other news, Smith and Viv are equal, again. God, I am loving this.

Well you've already stated your preference, so I sure you are, lol.

 

[subshakerz]

I hope when I bring up the trends of the greatest teams in history later, you're just as open.

Because it definitely applies to how we "should" build teams and prioritize skills..

Problem is you don't follow your own logic in the greatest teams and misrepresent.

Great teams don't need ARs (except the Invincibles with Miller)

Great teams don't need tails to bail them out (except they regularly do)

 

[subshakerz]

I fully understand that.

I just disagree. In general so do the pundits, and not one or two, he literally never makes these types of teams.

The only counter I've received to this is that it's because he's from NZ.

You haven't given any argument from record why McGrath should be ahead of Hadlee.

 

[Johan]

Anyways, in other news, Smith and Viv are equal, again. God, I am loving this.

sheesh

 

[subshakerz]

My issue is, I can't leave out who I think was legitimately one of the two best bowlers of all time.

Pigeon has the get the new ball.

But your points are very valid.

Wow so even though you admit it creates an less balanced pace attack you still won't select Imran. And to defend it you give the same stat ranking addict logic you are purportedly against.

That bias runs deep.