Alan Knott VS Adam Gilchrist

[shortpitched713]

The Locks"
Don Bradman
Gary Sobers

Mostly in, but there's an argument or competition
Malcolm Marshall
Jack Hobbs
Sachin Tendulkar
Adam Gilchrist

Very Likely
Len Hutton
Viv Richards
Glenn McGrath
Shane Warne

Toss up (or alternative)
Richard Hadlee
Sunil Gavaskar
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Brian Lara
Steve Smith
Alan Knott
Denis Lillee

This is a more accurate list, I think.

 

[DrWolverine]

I am guessing it is players he has seen and it’s very surprising he did not pick Sachin despite him saying on many occasions he was the best.

 

[shortpitched713]

I don't think Sangakkara was the better keeper really. That's really the biggest reason Gilchrist is in the team not him.

Sanga was the best keeper to his spin, according to Murali. He's about as solid as you get back there (same with Gilly btw, which is why I find arguments against him just lol).

The reason Sanga didn't play WK/bat in Tests during his prime was neither deficiency in batting or keeping, but rather the question of if he could maintain that workload in both formats, and erring on the side of caution.

These guys aren't Andy Flower. Yeah, it is "unfair" that they can be so much better at batting than your average keeper and even some batting oriented keeprs, while also being excellent as keepers? Sure. But life ain't fair, and everything isn't equal.

 

[Thala_0710]

I don't think Sangakkara was the better keeper really. That's really the biggest reason Gilchrist is in the team not him.

That was in comparison to Pant

 

[kyear2]

I explained. It's not just catches it's byes and stumpings. I gave a video where Knott showed how he gave signals on what to bowl to Underwood.

And again, elite slips are great but not more compared to actual lower order runs.

Yeah, until they drop two chances and you lose the match.

 

[DrWolverine]

The reason Sanga didn't play WK/bat in Tests during his prime was neither deficiency in batting or keeping, but rather the question of if he could maintain that workload in both formats, and erring on the side of caution.

One of the biggest reasons I respect Andy Flower was his workload. He was not primarily a keeper but did so for the benefit for the team.

Keeping wickets for 150+ overs
Andy : 19 times in 55 Tests.
Boucher : 19 times in 147 Tests.
Healy : 18 times in 117 Tests
Gilly : 9 times in 96 Tests.

Despite the burden of captaincy, being team’s star batsman and excessive keeping workload, he ended his career as only keeper to average 50+

 

[kyear2]

Would you pick Akram if he couldn't bat? Please don't evade this time.

Yes.

I've told you this before, the reasons I select him.

He was the greatest old ball bowler, and that's his primary responsibility here.

He had the traits I require, the ability to move the ball both ways, old and new ball, conventional and reverse.

His peer rating is immense and the fact that he made both the Cricinfo and Wisden teams, as well as guys like Crowe over his own team mate, makes an impression on me.

I've also said that we shouldn't have a world XI with only one player from the s / c.

Is it a welcome plus, yes. Part of the equation, no. Becuse if the 4 bowlers in contention for the spot, he's only better than Steyn with the bat, he's behind Imran and Hadlee.

 

[kyear2]

The thing with Warne is that even if you believe that Murali is the slightly better bowler, Warne's batting + slip fielding + general presence/aura on the field just elevates him. Hence even with a direct competitor, he's the most common choice.

Not just common, almost unanimous.

The cricketer I've seen most listed as the 3rd greatest ever is Warne.

 

[kyear2]

I will give it a try for 15 players


The Locks"
Don Bradman
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist

Mostly in, but there's an argument or competition
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Sachin Tendulkar
Malcolm Marshall

Very Likely
Viv Richards
Glen McGrath
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne

Toss up (any of)
Sunil Gavaskar
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes
Imran Khan

Adam can't be a lock of he doesn't make one of the two accepted teams.

Hobbs, Marshall and Tendulkar are not only locks, but ahead of Gilchrist.

Hadlee can't be very likely when he literally doesn't make any teams. I've seen Barry Richards in more first teams that Hadlee.

 

[Johan]

Warne is pretty much in every second XI, because he and Murali are practically equals as bowlers with whoever having the edge, having it by the smallest margin possible. Warne then just has superior batting, his fielding prime coincided with his bowling prime and was a genius strategist similar to Javed Miandad.

 

[kyear2]

The Locks"
Don Bradman
Gary Sobers

Mostly in, but there's an argument or competition
Malcolm Marshall
Jack Hobbs
Sachin Tendulkar
Adam Gilchrist

Very Likely
Len Hutton
Viv Richards
Glenn McGrath
Shane Warne

Toss up (or alternative)
Richard Hadlee
Sunil Gavaskar
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Brian Lara
Steve Smith
Alan Knott
Denis Lillee

As listed, my only argument is have you ever seen an AT XI without Warne.

Like ever? While it's not mine, Warne is likely the 3rd name on the sheet.

 

[kyear2]

View attachment 47448

Have you ever watched it?

He said, as I've said repeatedly, that it wasn't the best team, it was the one he wanted to represent him.

He was very clear.

 

[kyear2]

I don’t understand how Adam Gilchrist isn’t a lock.

I think you're looking at who's a lock for you, rather than who actually makes the teams the most.

Ignoring. Bradman and Sobers.

Warne makes the most teams

Next would be the group of Hobbs, Marshall, Tendulkar, and then Gilly.

 

[Johan]

Is it the focus on stats nowadays?
Len Hutton has a near perfect record.

Hutton has always been rated higher here than Gavaskar AFAIK, he beat Sunny in both 2022 and 2024 lists and won the head to head thread. Think a shift recently has been that Hutton has gone up due to more people willing to debate for him, like Coronis for Herbert Sutcliffe or Baz for Graham Gooch, and Sunny's ability has been questioned a bit by a few posters.

 

[kyear2]

A better keeper is possible.

A better keeper who is even remotely close to Gilly as a batsman is not possible.


There is only one and I am yet to see a single person pick Andy Flower. I am the only one who did it on this sub and even that was for fun.


99% of people want a WK who can bat well


Never happened.

Can bat well doesn't mean best batsman.

There's a more than decent argument for Knott over Gilchrist.

Wisden though so, there's a who video where Kimber and Bumble chose Knott as well.

 

[kyear2]

If I have to choose a WK batsman(without taking into consideration his keeping skills), I would even choose Pant over Sanga.

Pant has more match winning knocks, a higher strike rate and proved himself in away conditions more than Sanga.

And this is where you lose me.

Pant is not a good wicketkeeper

 

[Johan]

Marshall's list is those he saw obviously or played with.

Ambrose left out players he didn't see and left out players from West Indies, he mentioned he'd have put Lara, IVA Richards and Marshall in if he wasn't doing so.

Gavaskar
Gooch
Kallis
Tendulkar
Ponting
Waugh
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Akram
Warne
McGrath

He gave special shout outs to Ian Botham and David Gower.

 

[Coronis]

One of the biggest reasons I respect Andy Flower was his workload. He was not primarily a keeper but did so for the benefit for the team.

Keeping wickets for 150+ overs
Andy : 19 times in 55 Tests.
Boucher : 19 times in 147 Tests.
Healy : 18 times in 117 Tests
Gilly : 9 times in 96 Tests.

Despite the burden of captaincy, being team’s star batsman and excessive keeping workload, he ended his career as only keeper to average 50+

I’m curious. How do these 19 occasions line up to his career? i.e how many were during his peak?

 

[Coronis]

View attachment 47472
Marshall's list is those he saw obviously or played with.

Ambrose left out players he didn't see and left out players from West Indies, he mentioned he'd have put Lara, IVA Richards and Marshall in if he wasn't doing so.

Gavaskar
Gooch
Kallis
Tendulkar
Ponting
Waugh
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Akram
Warne
McGrath

He gave special shout outs to Ian Botham and David Gower.

I like that as a premise for players tbh. Not being able to pick players from their own country. I think I might go do that now with Australia.

 

[kyear2]

I saw ATG list picked by former players in the Lord’s YouTube channel and this is the best among them.

View attachment 47450

Possibly the only good one.

Well, Marshall wasn't in Benaud's XI or both Tendulkar and Hobbs in Donald's. I didn't say he was more of a lock than Marshall or Hobbs or Sachin, I just said he definitely isn't less as well.

I swear the Benaud reference has become a meme despite the obvious reality.

A starting point for me is Wisden, Cricinfo, ours.

If you make all 3, you're in contention.

Then there's Willis's, Crowe's, Boycott's, Gower's, CMJ's, Armstrong's etc etc.

I look for and use the ones I can confirm, the ones that take into account all of cricket history and not just from their eras.
Mark Nicholas has hinted at, but never completed one, Kimber, we can now quite easily guess.

But the point is that Gilchrist isn't represented as much as other guys, it's not a matter of preference, that's what it is.

There are two teams that sets the standard, Wisden is definitely one of them, hos is he the definite lock if he isn't even making that.

Everyone's dancing around it, but it's right there.