Alan Knott VS Adam Gilchrist

[subshakerz]

Nothing I said there even intimated that.

Gosh what a liar.

Here is you three pages ago describing Marshall as a lock.

Ummmm

"The Locks"
Hobbs
Bradman | Tendulkar | Sobers
Marshall

Mostly in, but there's an argument or competition
Hutton | Gilchrist | Warne

Very Likely
Richards | McGrath

Toss up (any of)
Hadlee | Imran | Wasim | Barnes

 

[subshakerz]

He's literally not.

It's like if my guy isn't then neither is yours, lol.

There's two ways to look at this and what constitutes a lock.

1. Who actually makes the actual larger, credible AT teams. When we look at it that way, it's Bradman and Sobers the obvious ones, third has to be Warne, then it's Hobbs, Marshall and Tendulkar (in that order). Despite the fact that most here would disagree Richards and Gilchrist are up next.

The truth is that by the time we get to team no. 1 or 2 Gilchrist is already missing.

2. Is there a legitimate argument that can be made against a player, or is there close competition.

Warne has Murali. Just watched a video where Murali was the unanimous choice. Of course the team was ****, and the panelist not exactly top tier, so wouldn't be taking it too seriously, but it was a panel , sooo...

Gilchrist has Knott. There's a video with Bumble and Kimber speaking of the value of taking the better keeper, there's an article for the Cricinfo team where it questions the need for Gilchrist considering the batting line up, and extols the virtues of going for the genuine AT gloveman. Chappell also goes that way, so does Boycott and Swanton among others. Willis chooses neither.

Hobbs and Hutton has Sunny, who has made teams ahead of both, though primarily Hutton, and Barry who pops up intermittently (even if not enough). It's not the majority, but yeah Hutton has Gavaskar, and it's not a one off.

Hobbs (even though not my personal choice), Marshall and Tendulkar, don't have those prevailing arguments.
Don't think there's a sufficient constituency of people who rate two middle order bats ahead of Tendulkar (Willis being a notable exception), and none that rate two new ball bowlers, or three pacers in general over Marshall. Hobbs is still revered as the Master and is treated as such.

So if you think neither of the 3 are genuine locks in both categories please highlight. Sachin is almost universally seen as a top 3 bat, similarly Marshall as the GOAT pacer.
Hobbs is the greatest and very arguably best after Bradman.

If a team has Hayden over Hobbs, that speaks more to the team than Hobbs. And Marshall unlike McGrath can bat, has a greater body of work and over different conditions than Barnes, and isn't comparable statistically to Lillee. He literally also makes more AT teams than even Tendulkar and about par if not slightly more than Hobbs.

This post is riddled with problems.

Which 'significant constituency' rates Murali ahead of Warne in an ATG XI?

Yet Marshall is unanimous despite many ATG XIs historically having Lillee instead?

The problem is you can give reference to Kyear but he will lie and ignore them later.

And then he goes on and on about consensus but chooses to ignore it for Hobbs in his ATG XI.

Fact is, there is no consensus for anyone aside from Sobers and Bradman which is what we have been saying since the beginning.

 

[sayon basak]

He doen't though, He rates Barry behind only Sobers and Viv.

Lillee's top 5 seemingly,

View attachment 47437
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[kyear2]

No, but then again, I’ve never tried to use the list to praise anybody.

What I have said is that the only players for which the Wisden top 5 players makes any definitive statements are the players who received 100 and 90 votes respectively.

What I've also referenced when discussing a player is to mention of they are a Wisden top 5 player, because it was an honor bestowed.

How is that a problem?

 

[akilana]

Assuming they will face another ATG side and as you indicated you prefer Knott over Gilly, that is a ordinary if not poor tail.

Warne and Lee were saving Australia against regular opposition.

you were also arguing for Knott over Gilly

 

[subshakerz]

What I have said is that the only players for which the Wisden top 5 players makes any definitive statements are the players who received 100 and 90 votes respectively.

What I've also referenced when discussing a player is to mention of they are a Wisden top 5 player, because it was an honor bestowed.

How is that a problem?

Because you are clearly using a list you think is unreliable when convenient for your argument. And it's not convincing. Fact is Lillee.at the time was clearly rated ahead of Marshall.

 

[subshakerz]

you were also arguing for Knott over Gilly

Yes but I never denied you need a no.8 is a good lower order bat like Imran/Hadlee/Wasim.

 

[akilana]

Yes but I never denied you need a no.8 is a good lower order bat like Imran/Hadlee/Wasim.

you can't say Gilly would suck against good attacks and vouch for imran/hadlee/wasim's batting to save your team against an ATG attack.

 

[subshakerz]

you can't say Gilly would suck against good attacks and vouch for imran/hadlee/wasim's batting to save your team against an ATG attack.

I'm saying Gilly is a better bat but against great attacks the difference between him and Knott is tightened enough that Knott's keeping advantage is more noticeable.

Imran makes my team regardless of Knott or Gilly.

 

[DrWolverine]

Lillee was rated ahead Marshall in the 1990s.

Richie Benaud picked him ahead of Maco.

Lillee came in 6th among Wisden Cricketers list.

Sir Don Bradman picked only two players in his ATG team who made their debut post 1970 and one of them was Dennis Lillee.

 

[akilana]

I'm saying Gilly is a better bat but against great attacks the difference between him and Knott is tightened enough that Knott's keeping advantage is more noticeable.

Imran makes my team regardless of Knott or Gilly.

what are you basing this on?

against great attacks, I'm not going to trust aforementioned bowlers to play a match saving innings.

 

[subshakerz]

Lillee was rated ahead Marshall in the 1990s.

Richie Benaud picked him ahead of Maco.

Lillee came in 6th among Wisden Cricketers list.

Sir Don Bradman picked only two players in his ATG team who made their debut post 1970 and one of them was Dennis Lillee.

Lillee also came 6th in the ESPN list, Marshall 16th.

Bernadge, TMS and Woodcocks lists had Marshall behind Lillee. As did Dickie Bird and Blofeld

 

[subshakerz]

what are you basing this on?

against great attacks, I'm not going to trust aforementioned bowlers to play a match saving innings.

Based on watching Gilly and I don't think he would be able to do his counter attacking against top pace attacks. He is still a better bat overall.

Imran played plenty of match saving innings against top bowlers.

 

[DrWolverine]

Dickie Bird’s team

 

[akilana]

Based on watching Gilly and I don't think he would be able to do his counter attacking against top pace attacks. He is still a better bat overall.

Imran played plenty of match saving innings against top bowlers.

I have seen gilly destroy wasim and co and then SA's attack. Knott's going to do well against top pace attack?

I'm not going to trust Imran, Wasim, Warne etc to play match saving inniings against an ATG attack..

 

[kyear2]

You LITERALLY don't have Hobbs in your AT XI......

As I noted.

But I'm also not parochial in my thinking as you are.

Even though he's not in mine, doesn't mean he's not a lock for such teams.

You're gauging it by your opinions, preferences and biases. Im basing it on reality and logical arguments, even if not mine. Again Hobbs makes the overwhelming amount of these teams.

In your mind it's incomprehensible that Gilchrist isn't an automatic choice because you base everything on lower order batting, but many just prefer the better keeper, and some select them.

 

[sayon basak]

Even though he's not in mine, doesn't mean he's not a lock for such teams.

I don't get it. If he were a lock, why wouldn't someone include him in his XI even after knowing that?
And if there are reasons not to include him, how is he a lock?

 

[kyear2]

you can't say Gilly would suck against good attacks and vouch for imran/hadlee/wasim's batting to save your team against an ATG attack.

The lack of awareness. Lol

 

[Coronis]

I mean, Balwinder Sandhu only played 8 tests. He has an FC average of 21. He played an innings of 71 against Roberts, Holding, Garner and Marshall.

 

[subshakerz]

I have seen gilly destroy wasim and co and then SA's attack. Knott's going to do well against top pace attack?

I'm not going to trust Imran, Wasim, Warne etc to play match saving inniings against an ATG attack..

Gilly had the advantage of flatter pitches in those series. Almost famously suffered in the 2005 Ashes. Knott has tons against Lillee Thommo and Roberts Holding. Gilly still better but not by a distance against top attacks.

Imran has several match saving innings against top class WI and Aus attacks.

1980: Imran saves Pakistan at 5 down against the WI quartet with a ton.
1984: Pakistan are 5 down for nothing against Aus in the second innings and Imran saves them with a fifty against Lillee
1986: Against Marshall and Walsh, Imran saves them in the 4th innings with 7 down
1990: Against Ambrose, Bishop, Marshall, Imran saves them against at 7 down with a fifty
1990: Famous Adelaide ton saves Pakistan who are in trouble in the second innings.

I back Imran over Gilly in fact if the goal is to absorb deliveries and save a game. And besides he is the best batting option at no.8 though for me he makes it on bowling merits as well.