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Alan Knott VS Adam Gilchrist

Who the Better Cricketer

  • Alan Knott

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Adam Gilchrist

    Votes: 30 93.8%

  • Total voters
    32

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Marshall | McGrath | Bumrah | Warne

And yes, I'll be content with Marshall at 8 and Warne at 9, that's more than decent depth. Weren't you singing Warne's praises the other day of how he helped saves Australia's bacon a few times?
Assuming they will face another ATG side and as you indicated you prefer Knott over Gilly, that is a ordinary if not poor tail.

Warne and Lee were saving Australia against regular opposition.
 
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kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
My father told me he was surprised the online cricket community considered Marshall to be clearly better than Holding.
Holding is better than his numbers suggest and for me easily better than Garner.

As I've said he squarely in that Donald, Imran, Lillee tier.

He didn't have Marshall's tools, but he was very highly rated in the 80's, I've said that I've seen him rated above Imran, always below Lillee and Hadlee though.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Holding is better than his numbers suggest and for me easily better than Garner.

As I've said he squarely in that Donald, Imran, Lillee tier.

He didn't have Marshall's tools, but he was very highly rated in the 80's, I've said that I've seen him rated above Imran, always below Lillee and Hadlee though.
Right so then Marshall isn't an ATG lock.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
I am 100% sure that Dennis Lillee was considered the best in 1990s. Not exactly sure when Maco surpassed him.
Depends where and which constituency you ask.

Australia sure, the 70's players sure, the '80's batsmen always had Maco on top. Despite the media disparagement of the WI bowling tactics, Maco was clearly seen as the best in the world, the best of the era and by '88 he was seen as the greatest.

In '91 Swanton had him in his world XI, CMJ also rated him above Lillee, as did Boycott etc. etc.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Depends where and which constituency you ask.

Australia sure, the 70's players sure, the '80's batsmen always had Maco on top. Despite the media disparagement of the WI bowling tactics, Maco was clearly seen as the best in the world, the best of the era and by '88 he was seen as the greatest.

In '91 Swanton had him in his world XI, CMJ also rated him above Lillee, as did Boycott etc. etc.
So Marshall was 'clearly' seen as the best depending on which 'constituency'. Lol.

Dude you are just inventing facts, there are plenty of pundits right until the end of the millenium who didn't rate Marshall that high.
 

DrWolverine

International Vice-Captain
Before that we had to depend on opinions of ex-cricketers, journalists etc.

The internet changed everything. Now anyone can use it to read more and analyse to get an opinion and hence lots of ratings have changed.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Disagree. Knott was a superior gloveman and scored a higher percentage of 50s per innings than Gilchrist. In addition, Knott didn't have the benefit of playing against minnows such as Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. He also played against the Windies when they were at their peak.
I can see the rationale behind having Gilchrist in an ATG XI but not as a "lock".
All of this.

Again, why do we discredit the entire dead pitch era, the unparalleled support above him, where more often than not, the bowlers broken by the time he got to them.

And none of that comes close to the fact that how can someone be a lock when of the two AT teams with collaborative standing, he misses one of them, and others.

Than when he is selected there's a legitimate discussion on the merits of selection depending on preference of philosophy.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Fair, but as Luffy already clarified, what he means is that Gilly is just as much of a lock as Marshall. If Gilly isn't a lock, neither is Marshall, which is a perfectly fine take.
He's literally not.

It's like if my guy isn't then neither is yours, lol.

There's two ways to look at this and what constitutes a lock.

1. Who actually makes the actual larger, credible AT teams. When we look at it that way, it's Bradman and Sobers the obvious ones, third has to be Warne, then it's Hobbs, Marshall and Tendulkar (in that order). Despite the fact that most here would disagree Richards and Gilchrist are up next.

The truth is that by the time we get to team no. 1 or 2 Gilchrist is already missing.

2. Is there a legitimate argument that can be made against a player, or is there close competition.

Warne has Murali. Just watched a video where Murali was the unanimous choice. Of course the team was ****, and the panelist not exactly top tier, so wouldn't be taking it too seriously, but it was a panel , sooo...

Gilchrist has Knott. There's a video with Bumble and Kimber speaking of the value of taking the better keeper, there's an article for the Cricinfo team where it questions the need for Gilchrist considering the batting line up, and extols the virtues of going for the genuine AT gloveman. Chappell also goes that way, so does Boycott and Swanton among others. Willis chooses neither.

Hobbs and Hutton has Sunny, who has made teams ahead of both, though primarily Hutton, and Barry who pops up intermittently (even if not enough). It's not the majority, but yeah Hutton has Gavaskar, and it's not a one off.

Hobbs (even though not my personal choice), Marshall and Tendulkar, don't have those prevailing arguments.
Don't think there's a sufficient constituency of people who rate two middle order bats ahead of Tendulkar (Willis being a notable exception), and none that rate two new ball bowlers, or three pacers in general over Marshall. Hobbs is still revered as the Master and is treated as such.

So if you think neither of the 3 are genuine locks in both categories please highlight. Sachin is almost universally seen as a top 3 bat, similarly Marshall as the GOAT pacer.
Hobbs is the greatest and very arguably best after Bradman.

If a team has Hayden over Hobbs, that speaks more to the team than Hobbs. And Marshall unlike McGrath can bat, has a greater body of work and over different conditions than Barnes, and isn't comparable statistically to Lillee. He literally also makes more AT teams than even Tendulkar and about par if not slightly more than Hobbs.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Careful, that list is bogus in certain contexts
So you rate Frank Worrell as the 6th greatest cricketer of all time.

Simple question.

No one doubts Lillee's greatness btw, and when he retired and even before he was seen as the greatest pacer ever.

Nothing to sneeze at or discredit.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Assuming they will face another ATG side and as you indicated you prefer Knott over Gilly, that is a ordinary if not poor tail.

Warne and Lee were saving Australia against regular opposition.
One, we're making an assumption of where Bumrah will end up. He's still behind Steyn, Ambrose and Hadlee even on quality for me. Two, Gilchrist, Marshall, Warne and more than good enough 7 through 9.

We can disagree.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Right so then Marshall isn't an ATG lock.
Nothing I said there even intimated that.

No one even in the Caribbean rates Holding ahead of Marshall. I Holding's words, there was no doubt as who was the leader of the attack.

So Marshall was 'clearly' seen as the best depending on which 'constituency'. Lol.

Dude you are just inventing facts, there are plenty of pundits right until the end of the millenium who didn't rate Marshall that high.
I'm awaiting the names and references.

While you're at it, produce the number of AT teams that you references that he isn't in. You know, the ones with Bradman and taking into account the history of the game. I can find more teams missing Tendulkar than missing Marshall.

This is just your stubbornness, personal animosity, and refusal to acknowledge that he was rated that highly as a bowler.

So while you're at it, name the three better fast bowlers.
 

capt_Luffy

International Coach
He's literally not.

It's like if my guy isn't then neither is yours, lol.

There's two ways to look at this and what constitutes a lock.

1. Who actually makes the actual larger, credible AT teams. When we look at it that way, it's Bradman and Sobers the obvious ones, third has to be Warne, then it's Hobbs, Marshall and Tendulkar (in that order). Despite the fact that most here would disagree Richards and Gilchrist are up next.

The truth is that by the time we get to team no. 1 or 2 Gilchrist is already missing.

2. Is there a legitimate argument that can be made against a player, or is there close competition.

Warne has Murali. Just watched a video where Murali was the unanimous choice. Of course the team was ****, and the panelist not exactly top tier, so wouldn't be taking it too seriously, but it was a panel , sooo...

Gilchrist has Knott. There's a video with Bumble and Kimber speaking of the value of taking the better keeper, there's an article for the Cricinfo team where it questions the need for Gilchrist considering the batting line up, and extols the virtues of going for the genuine AT gloveman. Chappell also goes that way, so does Boycott and Swanton among others. Willis chooses neither.

Hobbs and Hutton has Sunny, who has made teams ahead of both, though primarily Hutton, and Barry who pops up intermittently (even if not enough). It's not the majority, but yeah Hutton has Gavaskar, and it's not a one off.

Hobbs (even though not my personal choice), Marshall and Tendulkar, don't have those prevailing arguments.
Don't think there's a sufficient constituency of people who rate two middle order bats ahead of Tendulkar (Willis being a notable exception), and none that rate two new ball bowlers, or three pacers in general over Marshall. Hobbs is still revered as the Master and is treated as such.

So if you think neither of the 3 are genuine locks in both categories please highlight. Sachin is almost universally seen as a top 3 bat, similarly Marshall as the GOAT pacer.
Hobbs is the greatest and very arguably best after Bradman.

If a team has Hayden over Hobbs, that speaks more to the team than Hobbs. And Marshall unlike McGrath can bat, has a greater body of work and over different conditions than Barnes, and isn't comparable statistically to Lillee. He literally also makes more AT teams than even Tendulkar and about par if not slightly more than Hobbs.
You LITERALLY don't have Hobbs in your AT XI......
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
One, we're making an assumption of where Bumrah will end up. He's still behind Steyn, Ambrose and Hadlee even on quality for me. Two, Gilchrist, Marshall, Warne and more than good enough 7 through 9.

We can disagree.
I thought you supported Knott?
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
So if you think neither of the 3 are genuine locks in both categories please highlight. Sachin is almost universally seen as a top 3 bat, similarly Marshall as the GOAT pacer.
Hobbs is the greatest and very arguably best after Bradman.
At this point you are just choosing to ignore that historically Lillee has been in more ATG XIs than Marshall and is his clear competition.

If Gilchrist has Knott, Marshall has Lillee and Barnes.

And Marshall unlike McGrath can bat
Wait, wait wait...aren't you the one telling us AGAIN and AGAIN not to select bowlers based on batting? Once again you switch your own criteria.

I'm awaiting the names and references.

So while you're at it, name the three better fast bowlers.
I've already told you, Benaud, Bradman, Bird, Brearely, Marsh and Blofeld. And then there is Seans references.

I definitely pick Marshall in my all time XI, but I think it's fair to say that the idea of him being a consensus "locked-in" pick for such a team has become more and more prevalent in recent decades.

At or around the turn of the century, give or take, I saw all time XIs selected by Peter Baxter, Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Henry Blofeld, Bill Frindall, Jonathan Agnew, Don Bradman, Richie Benaud and Ashley Mallett, and Marshall didn't make any of them.

TMS chose their 40th anniversary team for 1957-1997 and Marshall didn't make that team either.

And if the all time rankings of John Woodcock and Nick Brownlee around that time were converted into all time XIs then Marshall misses both those teams too, and by a long way.

To repeat, I disagree with all of these, but the idea that Marshall is a near-universal lock in an all time XI certainly wasn't the case until relatively recently.
 
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kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Before that we had to depend on opinions of ex-cricketers, journalists etc.

The internet changed everything. Now anyone can use it to read more and analyse to get an opinion and hence lots of ratings have changed.
It was from old players as well though. Plenty actually
 

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