1986 Australian 2nd XI > West Indies 2nd XI

[TheJediBrah]

I wonder if there's scope for best ever second xi discussion, problem with these things is many will flit into the first xi.

I'll have a crack for Aus, Jan 2000, because I'm very familiar with it

M.Hayden
J.Cox
M.Love
D.Martyn
D.Lehmann
M.Hussey
B.Haddin
A.Bichel
J.Gillespie (injury-affected)
M. Kasprowicz
S.MacGill

(plus others like B.Hodge, young M.Clarke, S.Law, J.Maher)

 

[grecian]

The fact is ttm, and it is the basic flaw in your argument that those guys at the time couldn't get into a poor oz side, whilst the windies side were blocked by some ATG;s, you can talk about all of them how they developrd or once were brilliant, but at this course in time they weren't good enough to get in a ****e team, yes i made the same point twice in that argument, but basically it is the only point.

Logie was obdurate too, Hooper scored tons of test runs, and not sure why harper is mentioned as a batsman, though the best fielder in the world and a guy who averged under 30 with the ball seems quite decent for a second xi.

Who is Gabriel btw have no recollection of him, did he ever play a Test?

 

[ttm]

I'll have a crack for Aus, Jan 2000, because I'm very familiar with it

M.Hayden
J.Cox
M.Love
D.Martyn
D.Lehmann
M.Hussey
B.Haddin
A.Bichel
J.Gillespie (injury-affected)
M. Kasprowicz
S.MacGill

(plus others like B.Hodge, young M.Clarke, S.Law, J.Maher)

This team would destroy the Windies 2nd XI at their peak - mainly because the Windies batting is so poor. I would love to see the 1st teams from WI 1985 play Australia in around 2001. Imagine Garner, Marshall and Holding charging in to Hayden, Langer, Ponting, the Waughs and Gilchrist on the 1st day of a test.

 

[Dan]

There's a bit of devalue-your-own-achievement about it too when the sheer longevity and durability of the WI top 4 through that period meant that nobody else got a look in. Haynes and Greenidge being so good for so long means we all sit here going "who the **** is Gabriel, must be some spud" when it's entirely possible that he would have been a competent option who never got an opportunity.

 

[ttm]

There's a bit of devalue-your-own-achievement about it too when the sheer longevity and durability of the WI top 4 through that period meant that nobody else got a look in. Haynes and Greenidge being so good for so long means we all sit here going "who the **** is Gabriel, must be some spud" when it's entirely possible that he would have been a competent option who never got an opportunity.

Agree with the bowlers but Gabriel played in every game of the 1983/84 world series when Greenidge was out injured. He was seriously useless. It was Gabriel that actually made me think of this thread. I was wondering when watching the games on YouTube..."surely the West Indies have a better replacement batsman then him". I then dug up dozens of scorecards and found men like Thelston Payne and Carlisle Best

 

[grecian]

Agree with the bowlers but Gabriel played in every game of the 1983/84 world series when Greenidge was out injured. He was seriously useless. It was Gabriel that actually made me think of this thread. I was wondering when watching the games on YouTube..."surely the West Indies have a better replacement batsman then him". I then dug up dozens of scorecards and found men like Thelston Payne and Carlisle Best

So he played in one series badly and was never seen again, the thing is they then went back to possibly the greatest opening partnership of all time, maybe he was called up because they thought he was a dasher for ODIs. His record doesnty suggest he was ever really good, and not genuinely next in linein Tests

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Lawson averaged 19 in the Shield in 1985/86 and Mcdermott 26. Hughes, Mcdermott and Lawson all averaged less than 25 in 1986/87.

Shield averages may or may not mean anything (otherwise Glenn Bishop may have had a long, profitable international career based on his form in 85/86), but you keep missing the point which is that you are chosing players who are not replacements or '2nd XI' if all was fit and well. Lawson (who I believe was injured part way through 85/86) and McDermott were first-choice players, not replacements. Hughes was a replacement player in 85/86, and he performed well enough to get a single test only. 86/87 is a different matter as Hughes was in favour (and averaged 44 in tests, showing a yawning chasm there between domestic and international performance) and Lawson out of favour, but one needs to consider the same thing. You need to pick your first-choice XI for 1986, and only then can you begin to pick your XI of replacements. As we are considering a specific point in time (1986), too, one needs to consider variations in form with time.

 

[ttm]

Ok new plan. I will look at 1985 to 1990 and exclude any rebel players from both teams. I will pick the 1st teams then the 2nd XIs
Australia First XI
Boon
Marsh
Jones
Border
Ritchie
Waugh (S)
Healy
Matthews
Hughes
McDermott
Reid

2nd XI
Taylor
Wood
Siddons
Velletta
Waugh (M)
Hookes
Zoehrer
Dodemaide
Lawson
May
Whitney

West Indies First XI
Greenidge
Haynes
Richardson
Logie
Richards
Hooper
Dujon
Marshall
Ambrose
Patterson
Walsh

West Indies 2nd
Simmons
Best
Arthurton
Gomes
Lambert
Adams
Payne
Harper
Davis
Gray
Baptiste

I know Im biased but I actually think Australia would win the 2nd XI series. The only batsman in the Windies squad who is better than their counterpart is Adams. The windies have a stronger bowling lineup but I think Australia would win a 5 test series 2-1 or maybe 2-2 draw

 

[Bolo.]

Why exclude the rebels? WI rebels were only banned for playing because they couldnt get an international gig, which they would have if 2nd XIs were playing internationals. Same is true for some of the Aus players, plus the Aus players only caught short bans, and would have been eligible for most of your 85-90 period.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I haven't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been mentioned already, but the only thing I remember about Richard Gabriel was in one ODI game Viv Richards appeared to order him from the field after a string of mishaps. Richards denied it many years later.

 

[Red]

This team would destroy the Windies 2nd XI at their peak - mainly because the Windies batting is so poor. I would love to see the 1st teams from WI 1985 play Australia in around 2001. Imagine Garner, Marshall and Holding charging in to Hayden, Langer, Ponting, the Waughs and Gilchrist on the 1st day of a test.

Hayden would fail miserably. We'd see Langer at his best.

 

[Dan]

Ok new plan. I will look at 1985 to 1990 and exclude any rebel players from both teams. I will pick the 1st teams then the 2nd XIs

<snip>

I know Im biased but I actually think Australia would win the 2nd XI series. The only batsman in the Windies squad who is better than their counterpart is Adams. The windies have a stronger bowling lineup but I think Australia would win a 5 test series 2-1 or maybe 2-2 draw

This is a weird approach tbh. I ran the Statsguru query from 01 Jan 1985 to 31 Dec 1990 and Garner, Holding, Bishop, and Benjamin all played more Tests than Davis, Gray and Baptiste. Adams and Lambert didn't play Tests in that period, but Lara did (albeit one as a foetus). On the Australian side, you've batted everyone out of position yet left Taylor in the Second XI and picked Siddons and Waugh when neither had made it to Tests yet and there were plenty of depth bats who actually did play them.

Taking the top 22-ish players by Tests played in that period without screwing team balances in doing so, you get:

First XI	Second XI
Haynes (42) Greenidge (41) RIchardson (41) Richards (38) Hooper (22) Logie (34) Dujon (42) Marshall (35) Ambrose (23) Holding (8) Walsh (35)	Simmons (2) Best (8) Gomes (15) Lara (1) Lambert (0, but 1 ODI) Arthurton (5) Payne (1) Harper (11) Bishop (11) Benjamin (8) Patterson (18)
Marsh (38) Taylor (17) Boon (47) Jones (34) Border (51) Waugh (41) Healy (23) Hughes (25) McDermott (22) Lawson (18) Reid (20)	Hilditch (7) Phillips (15) Wood (11) Ritchie (21) Veletta (8) Matthews (19) Zoehrer (10) Taylor (10) O'Donnell (6) Dodemaide (8) Gilbert (9)

Could arguably have included Lloyd given his 14 ODIs in 1985 were the most of any WI batsmen who didn't play Tests in the period, but that's probably cheating a little given he was ancient by 1985, let alone 1990. Similarly I've left out Garner (11 Tests) because considering him as part of a Second XI is just plain silly no matter who else is available; Holding got First XI preference over him because his FC career extended longer.