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Shaun Pollock vs Fred Trueman

Better test bowler?

  • Total voters
    21
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
The argument about the flat pitch era though for Steyn is a bit disingenuous (as it is for Kallis the batsman).
The one place with distinctively non flat wickets was of course SA and that's where he did the vast majority of his damage. Of course he did stellar work in India, but that's basically it. He had good performances in other countries, but not ATG records there. He often also lacked a plan B and was taken to the wood shed more than any other great bowlers.

Murali too had tailor made conditions at home, you can't explicitly cite the flat pitch era. He was traumatized in Australia, wrecked in India and Lara took him apart in his own backyard.

Hadlee I do have top 3, but not in the GOAT debate with Marshall and McGrath and that's partially because, outside of CW, he's just not in it. His peer rating from the era supports that more than a little.
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You must rate Sanga and Mahela highly
 
P

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Johan said:
1. Malcolm Marshall – The most complete paceman of them all, almost no flaws. Express, Skilled with cutters, ATG in Subcontinent or England. He is like if you combine the relentless ferocity of Dale Steyn with the mind of a Glenn McGrath. No flaws that I can notice.

2. Glenn McGrath – The bowling supercomputer, successful in any condition, could take the wickets out of the equation, was a dominant force in the most batting dominated era of the game and was the key to the dynasty, definitely the second most flawless record among the pacers. His only real flaw would be the record against South Africa at home which can also be put down to sample size.

3. Sydney Barnes – The average of 16 does the guy justice, can bowl as many as a spinner like Maurice Tate or Alec Bedser, but due to the mastery of swing bowling, he has the pluses of Warne and Murali without their negatives as he wasn't weak on day 1 and 2. Well into his 50s, he was on the same level of bowling as world class bowlers like Harold Larwood and Maurice Tate, another absurd feat.

4. Richard Hadlee – carried a country through a decade and made them unbeatable at home. The greatest touring bowler of Australia in history, won games in England, won games In India, won games at home, Amazing record, I'd have preffered if he got more tours to West Indies but whatever.

5. Curtly Ambrose – maybe controversial but I think he was one of the greatest to ever bowl in West Indies, England and Australia, other than his debut series and one series where he was unhealthy, averages 20. Sadly unproven in Asia a bit.

6. Dale Steyn – One of the most destructive pacemen of all time, really hard to play in a lot of countries and contexts, should've been more destructive outside of Asia but the stuff he did in India is elite ATG, He might go higher in the ranking one day

7. Imran Khan – Genius, performed everywhere, match winning contributions in Australia, in England, in West Indies and so forth. Great work is a little peak concentrated (1980-1986) but arguably with Barnes, it's the greatest bowling peak in history of the game so it doesn't even matter.

8. Fred Trueman – Express pace, and a genius, and the most destructive fast bowler of all time. Transcends his era in terms of SR and Wickets-Per-Match and Wickets-Per-inning, was a world class bowler from 1952 to 1964, 12 whole years and one of the first actual fast guys to maintain world class quality for that long. Destroyed good batting, won England the first series in West Indies in decades, saved the 1962-63 Ashes from being an Australian victory. Mostly downgraded by misinformation on this site. Sadly didn't play enough away.

9. Dennis Lillee – one of the first true modern fast bowlers, Exception in England, exceptional at home, very good in the West Indies and extremely high peer reputation. Sadly didn't play in Asia much, and had his struggles with the stronger batting lineups of the West Indies and Pakistan. Immense workhorse, 5+ WPM for a pacer.

10. Michael Holding – Extremely high on skill but can't put him above the two right above him due to the sheer difference in durability. One of the best ever to tour England, one of the best ever to tour Australia, one of the best ever to tour India. Also, the fastest in my top ten alongside pre 1962 Trueman and Pre Back Injury Lillee.
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No O’Reilly!!!
 
DrWolverine

DrWolverine

International Vice-Captain
Fred Trueman

Home : 47 Tests. 229 wkts @ 2.0. 14 5-Fer.

Away : 20 Tests. 78 wkts @ 26. 3 5-Fer.


subshakerz said:
He never had a worldclass level series away from home. And played 2/3rd of his tests at home.
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In NZ : 4 Tests. 19 wkts @ 14. 1 5-Fer.

In Aus : 8 Tests. 29 wkts @ 27.5. 1 5-Fer.

In WI : 8 Tests. 30 wkts @ 32.3. 1 5-Fer.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
shortpitched713 said:
I can't imagine 50's NZ was that great to write home about.
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English bowlers Trueman played with in NZ

(they all only played two of the matches unlike Trueman’s 4 - except Dexter)

Trueman 19 @ 14.15
Lock 13 @ 8.69
Titmus 10 @ 18.10
Knight 7 @ 16.57
Tyson 6 @ 16.00
Barrington 4 @ 12.75
Dexter 3 @ 18.00
Larter 3 @ 53.66
Mortimore 2 @ 45.50
Illingworth 1 @ 34.00
 
shortpitched713

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
Coronis said:
English bowlers Trueman played with in NZ

(they all only played two of the matches unlike Trueman’s 4 - except Dexter)

Trueman 19 @ 14.15
Lock 13 @ 8.69
Titmus 10 @ 18.10
Knight 7 @ 16.57
Tyson 6 @ 16.00
Barrington 4 @ 12.75
Dexter 3 @ 18.00
Larter 3 @ 53.66
Mortimore 2 @ 45.50
Illingworth 1 @ 34.00
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Hmm, one might imagine the Test status for NZ could have been a bit premature.
 
Johan

Johan

International Coach
Anyway, this was my justification for why I don't judge Trueman off three games serieses away from home in 1954.

Johan said:
He was, infact, Not.

The English selection policy of the time was a strange one, no one except the spinners were generally a confirmed pick, for example, even the 1930s Pacers never played all the games that were available to them.

O’Reilly 26/26 (100%)
Martindale 10/10 (100%)
Grimmett 28/30 (93.33%)
McCormick 12/13 (92.31%)
Constantine 15/19 (78.95%)
Verity 40/53 (75.47%)
Ironmonger 12/20 (60%)
Farnes 15/34 (44.12%)
Voce 24/58 (41.38%)
Bowes 15/50 (30%)
Tate 13/48 (27.08%)

Even Larwood 9/27 (33.33%) [Credit to Coronis]

The English Selection policy was a strange one and fully believed in resting their bowlers constantly, constant experimentation with their bowlers and therefore so many pacers did not play full games. Trueman however, had even worse luck as throughout his career he was constantly feuding with the selectors and the establishment.

In West Indies 1954, Trueman and Lock were accused to shouting at, harrassing and shoving around the wife of a MCC member and both almost lost their careers to it, since then many stories have come out and implied that the ones responsible were not the Juniors in Trueman and Lock, but the seniors in Denis Compton and Godfrey Evans and they were the one to be all harrassive and shoving around the lady. Trueman and Lock were most likely thrown under the bus to protect the more respected Compton and Evans, and Trueman would miss almost every game for a few years. He also went against the MCC as the MCC had asked the English team to not fraternise with the Windies team which Trueman directly went against, due to his rebellious nature, and befriended Sir Frank Worrell. All in all, a really controversial tour which ended with Trueman forever being soured against Hutton and the establishment and them soured toward him, as he apparently was not racist enough. He had also wanted to leave the tour mid way but was wrongly denied that right (imagine Kohli 2020-21 BGT) and was rusty per his own account, having not played Test Cricket or even county Cricket serving the Royal Air Force.

He would not be picked to play for a couple years, and the establishment would always drop him the moment they had a chance as they did not remotely like him. At the time, Subcontinent was barely toured and almost never by the top English players, not that they would pose much of a challenge as the Indians were notoriously bad against good fast bowling and the Pakistanis played on matting wickets where I wouldn't really wager they'd have a good chance against any very good bowler. Trueman was always willing to play whatever Cricket he could, so him not being picked for Australia in 54-55 further soured the relations with the establishment.

in 1958-59, he was injured before the Ashes and medicines failed and he was in pain with his back, he apparently took Lemon Juice and Beer and asked to be allowed to play, it's very unlikely that Peter May would've played any games with Trueman had things gone well...they did not go well. England lost the first two games so badly they had to get the injured Trueman to bowl, and they dropped a hilarious amount of catches off him when he got in and the umpiring for this tour was notoriously crooked. All in all, combined with Trueman not being at 100%, everything going wrong for England, the umpiring being notoriously bad even by the standards of the time and mostly important, being an injury influenced series, him not being top form is understandable.

Really, it was in 1960 when he got his first fair dig at the West Indies, dry dead wickets combined with the ruthless batting of Garfield Sobers, Frank Worrell, Rohan Kanhai et cetera. It was pretty much a nightmare series for a bowler, Godly batting, dead wickets, extremely high scoring. Trueman averaged 26 with 21 wickets in 8 innings, was the highest wicket taker, 4 of the games were high scoring draws and only one game had a result, and that was an English victory spearheaded via a fifer by Trueman and him suppressing Sobers, winning the series. The performance was very highly rated at the time, especially when you put it all into context.

By 1962/63, he got his first non injury influenced dig at Australia, his pace had gone down significantly and the series was also very high scoring, 35+ Run-per-wicket and 3 of the games were draws. Trueman won one of the games and was the second highest wicket taker. He averaged 26 and again won one of the games by himself, drawing the series 1-1, he'd retire in 1965.

All in all, I think the idea Trueman was a HTB is a bit overplayed, he was godly at home but his away tours are really rough, one of the tours he straight up wasn't payed for and the establishment almost ended his career, he was not at 100% in 1958-59 and only played because the other English bowlers were god awful and the series is still injury influenced. Then he just got two digs at the two strongest batting lineups on dead flat wickets where 70% of the games would be draws and he'd win 2 of the 3 games that even had a result, by himself.

he only really got digs at elite batting on flat wickets in the 60s, never really got a dig at weak South African battings on spicy Saffer wickets, or the weak Pakistani batting lineups on mattings and so forth. While I get it, He doesn't have away ATG tours so should be below Imran or Steyn or yada yada, I don't think many bowlers are doing much better than 41 @ 26 against the top two batting lineups on flat away wickets. I don't think he was a HTB or whatever, just someone who the establishment of the time despised and tried hardest to get rid of, and someone who was dealt a pretty rough hand away from home generally.

Anyway, that's just my beliefs, apologies if it got too long.
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