• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Lillee/Trueman/Akram/Donald - how would you rank them?

number11

State Vice-Captain
Overall: and assuming each at their best:

Lillee
Akram
Donald
Trueman

The first 2 would very likely make my [and many other] AT XIs.
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
Great thread, and the most diversity of opinions here on who of the 4 are top dog amongst them.

@subshakerz and whoever else cares to join, support your champion through the purity that is unarmed combat internet debate. I believe that Allan Donald is the best of these 4, and below you will see my argument:
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
Allan Donald simply has by far the best record of the four. Obviously, all have a flaw as compared to the "top 5", but Donald's statistical record actually falls more in line with the top group than with the 3 in this thread. I will present on 3 criteria: Era adjusted away and home average ratios, era adjusted strike rate ratio, and WPI.

Average RatiosAH
Marshall21.57/32.66
0.660440906​
20.06/31.62
0.634408602​
McGrath20.81/32.48
0.64070197​
22.43/33.87
0.662237969​
Hadlee21.72/32.69
0.664423371​
22.96/32.14
0.714374611​
Steyn24.91/33.95
0.733726068​
21.62/30.36
0.712121212​
Ambrose20.78/31.84
0.652638191​
21.19/29.46
0.71928038​
Donald22.96/31.85
0.720879121​
21.64/29.61
0.730834178​
Akram24.44/32.17
0.759714019​
22.22/30.45
0.729720854​
Lillee24.28/32.93
0.737321591​
23.73/30.80
0.770454545​
Trueman26.08/31.75
0.821417323​
20.04/27.70
0.723465704​
SR Ratio
Marshall46.7/70.6
0.661473088​
McGrath51.9/66.7
0.778110945​
Hadlee50.8/71.7
0.708507671​
Steyn42.3/63.4
0.667192429​
Ambrose54.5/68.4
0.796783626​
Donald47.0/68.5
0.686131387​
Akram54.6/69.4
0.786743516​
Lillee52.0/72.8
0.714285714​
Trueman49.4/80.3
0.615193026​
WPI
Marshall376/151
2.490066225​
McGrath563/243
2.316872428​
Hadlee431/150
2.873333333​
Steyn439/171
2.567251462​
Ambrose405/179
2.262569832​
Donald330/129
2.558139535​
Akram414/181
2.287292818​
Lillee355/132
2.689393939​
Trueman307/127
2.417322835​

As you can see, Donald simply ends up much closer to the top group than any of the others, and is in fact seems to belong more to them than the famous foursome in question.
 

vidiq

State Regular
Allan Donald simply has by far the best record of the four. Obviously, all have a flaw as compared to the "top 5", but Donald's statistical record actually falls more in line with the top group than with the 3 in this thread. I will present on 3 criteria: Era adjusted away and home average ratios, era adjusted strike rate ratio, and WPI.

Average RatiosAH
Marshall21.57/32.66
0.660440906​
20.06/31.62
0.634408602​
McGrath20.81/32.48
0.64070197​
22.43/33.87
0.662237969​
Hadlee21.72/32.69
0.664423371​
22.96/32.14
0.714374611​
Steyn24.91/33.95
0.733726068​
21.62/30.36
0.712121212​
Ambrose20.78/31.84
0.652638191​
21.19/29.46
0.71928038​
Donald22.96/31.85
0.720879121​
21.64/29.61
0.730834178​
Akram24.44/32.17
0.759714019​
22.22/30.45
0.729720854​
Lillee24.28/32.93
0.737321591​
23.73/30.80
0.770454545​
Trueman26.08/31.75
0.821417323​
20.04/27.70
0.723465704​
SR Ratio
Marshall46.7/70.6
0.661473088​
McGrath51.9/66.7
0.778110945​
Hadlee50.8/71.7
0.708507671​
Steyn42.3/63.4
0.667192429​
Ambrose54.5/68.4
0.796783626​
Donald47.0/68.5
0.686131387​
Akram54.6/69.4
0.786743516​
Lillee52.0/72.8
0.714285714​
Trueman49.4/80.3
0.615193026​
WPI
Marshall376/151
2.490066225​
McGrath563/243
2.316872428​
Hadlee431/150
2.873333333​
Steyn439/171
2.567251462​
Ambrose405/179
2.262569832​
Donald330/129
2.558139535​
Akram414/181
2.287292818​
Lillee355/132
2.689393939​
Trueman307/127
2.417322835​

As you can see, Donald simply ends up much closer to the top group than any of the others, and is in fact seems to belong more to them than the famous foursome in question.
It means Ambrose bowled in more bowling friendly pitches even at home compared to Dale Steyn or 90s wi pitches were more bowling friendly than sa pitches of steyn era?
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
As a counterargument to the old canard, yeah but how'd he do against Australia.

I hundred percent cede that being a major hole in his super greatest fast bowlers application. However, all 4 of the players in this comparison have such holes.

Trueman is very easy, he performed significantly worse away from home than at home, and could easily be argued he was doding those tours consequentially. Steyn sometimes gets a bit of flak for having a little higher home than away Test matches, but the discrepancy for Trueman is almost 2.5 times as big in magnitude as Steyn's (16.86% more for Steyn, 40.3% more for Trueman).

Lillee has very few matches in the subcontinent, and had pretty horrid returns in the few that he played there. I think it's pretty fair to say that he could make hay in better conditions, particularly in England, but could have struggled to penetrate on flatter decks, regardless of his pace and aggression. He should get some credit for WSC against tough opposition, but it's hard to say how much. His average still was higher in those matches, which is to be expected against higher quality. Regardless at best it would move him up to the level of Wasim at most in my eyes, no higher.

Wasim has less obvious holes, and should get some credit for playing with some atrocious catchers, especially towards the later end of his career. However, he struggled with penetration (ayo) at times in a way that only the stingiest bowlers on this list could relate to. Regardless of the reason, this means at times things look good but the scoreboard is still ticking over with runs while he's not picking up wickets. The two in the "top 5", McGrath and Ambrose who are in the same SR bracket, had the ability to just close up shop, in a way that Wasim didn't.

So keeping that in mind, the overall record and greater contributions Donald had than the other bowlers in this comparison more than makes up for the fact that his bogey team Australia just happened to be the best team and especially batting lineup in the world. Yes, it was heartbreaking for SA fans, but I don't think that makes him as "unclutch" as people want to say. The difference between the teams was more than just a bad Donald performance (although great ones could have turned it around no doubt). They were getting beaten from all ends by exceptionally effective and clutch opponents in all sectors of the game when they faced Australia.
 
Last edited:

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
It means Ambrose bowled in more bowling friendly pitches even at home compared to Dale Steyn or 90s wi pitches were more bowling friendly than sa pitches of steyn era?
The home bowling average ratios are more noisy, because they are effected more by quality of the bowler in question and also his supporting attack. However this is giving an idea of how well the player plays in comparison to all the bowling that takes place in their era. An average SA pitch in Steyn's time produced about a run more per wicket than an average WI pitch in Ambrose's time, but both of them were about equally far above the total performance of other bowlers on their respective home pitches.
 

Johan

International Coach
Trueman is very easy, he performed significantly worse away from home than at home, and could easily be argued he was doding those tours consequentially. Steyn sometimes gets a bit of flak for having a little higher home than away Test matches, but the discrepancy for Trueman is almost 2.5 times as big in magnitude as Steyn's (16.86% more for Steyn, 40.3% more for Trueman).
He was, infact, Not.

The English selection policy of the time was a strange one, no one except the spinners were generally a confirmed pick, for example, even the 1930s Pacers never played all the games that were available to them.

O’Reilly 26/26 (100%)
Martindale 10/10 (100%)
Grimmett 28/30 (93.33%)
McCormick 12/13 (92.31%)
Constantine 15/19 (78.95%)
Verity 40/53 (75.47%)
Ironmonger 12/20 (60%)
Farnes 15/34 (44.12%)
Voce 24/58 (41.38%)
Bowes 15/50 (30%)
Tate 13/48 (27.08%)

Even Larwood 9/27 (33.33%) [Credit to Coronis]

The English Selection policy was a strange one and fully believed in resting their bowlers constantly, constant experimentation with their bowlers and therefore so many pacers did not play full games. Trueman however, had even worse luck as throughout his career he was constantly feuding with the selectors and the establishment.

In West Indies 1954, Trueman and Lock were accused to shouting at, harrassing and shoving around the wife of a MCC member and both almost lost their careers to it, since then many stories have come out and implied that the ones responsible were not the Juniors in Trueman and Lock, but the seniors in Denis Compton and Godfrey Evans and they were the one to be all harrassive and shoving around the lady. Trueman and Lock were most likely thrown under the bus to protect the more respected Compton and Evans, and Trueman would miss almost every game for a few years. He also went against the MCC as the MCC had asked the English team to not fraternise with the Windies team which Trueman directly went against, due to his rebellious nature, and befriended Sir Frank Worrell. All in all, a really controversial tour which ended with Trueman forever being soured against Hutton and the establishment and them soured toward him, as he apparently was not racist enough.

He would not be picked to play for a couple years, and the establishment would always drop him the moment they had a chance as they did not remotely like him. At the time, Subcontinent was barely toured and almost never by the top English players, not that they would pose much of a challenge as the Indians were notoriously bad against good fast bowling and the Pakistanis played on matting wickets where I wouldn't really wager they'd have a good chance against any very good bowler. Trueman was always willing to play whatever Cricket he could, so him not being picked for Australia in 54-55 further soured the relations with the establishment.

in 1958-59, he was injured before the Ashes and medicines failed and he was in pain with his back, he apparently took Lemon Juice and Beer and asked to be allowed to play, it's very unlikely that Peter May would've played any games with Trueman had things gone well...they did not go well. England lost the first two games so badly they had to get the injured Trueman to bowl, and they dropped a hilarious amount of catches off him when he got in and the umpiring for this tour was notoriously crooked. All in all, combined with Trueman not being at 100%, everything going wrong for England, the umpiring being notoriously bad even by the standards of the time and mostly important, being an injury influenced series, him not being top form is understandable.

Really, it was in 1960 when he got his first fair dig at the West Indies, dry dead wickets combined with the ruthless batting of Garfield Sobers, Frank Worrell, Rohan Kanhai et cetera. It was pretty much a nightmare series for a bowler, Godly batting, dead wickets, extremely high scoring. Trueman averaged 26 with 21 wickets in 8 innings, was the highest wicket taker, 4 of the games were high scoring draws and only one game had a result, and that was an English victory spearheaded via a fifer by Trueman and him suppressing Sobers, winning the series. The performance was very highly rated at the time, especially when you put it all into context.

By 1962/63, he got his first non injury influenced dig at Australia, his pace had gone down significantly and the series was also very high scoring, 35+ Run-per-wicket and 3 of the games were draws. Trueman won one of the games and was the second highest wicket taker. He averaged 26 and again won one of the games by himself, drawing the series 1-1, he'd retire in 1965.

All in all, I think the idea Trueman was a HTB is a bit overplayed, he was godly at home but his away tours are really rough, one of the tours he straight up wasn't payed for and the establishment almost ended his career, he was not at 100% in 1958-59 and only played because the other English bowlers were god awful and the series is still injury influenced. Then he just got two digs at the two strongest batting lineups on dead flat wickets where 70% of the games would be draws and he'd win 2 of the 3 games that even had a result, by himself.

he only really got digs at elite batting on flat wickets in the 60s, never really got a dig at weak South African battings on spicy Saffer wickets, or the weak Pakistani batting lineups on mattings and so forth. While I get it, He doesn't have away ATG tours so should be below Imran or Steyn or yada yada, I don't think many bowlers are doing much better than 41 @ 26 against the top two batting lineups on flat away wickets. I don't think he was a HTB or whatever, just someone who the establishment of the time despised and tried hardest to get rid of, and someone who was dealt a pretty rough hand away from home generally.

Anyway, that's just my beliefs, apologies if it got too long.
 
Last edited:

Johan

International Coach
Everyone put their list already, and I appreciate you adding yours, but what's your argument though?
Alright


I don't really think Lillee's record in Asia is a problem, sure the first game he had in Asia was a little underwhelming considering he could've won them there, but the second and third games...the scorecards read.

617
382/2
407/7
420/9 declared
391/8

yup, after one game, Pakistan made some vile wickets.

From this era, far inferior bowlers to Lillee such as Bob Willis, Geoffrey Arnold, Chris Old and so forth were able to put excellent numbers in India. Even by India supports on this site, it's often argued the Indian wickets were not all that bad for pace bowling before the 2000s and nobody bar Gavaskar was really a very good player of fast bowling. Same with Trueman, I think it's pretty much a missed opportunity for Dennis Lillee to not tour India but it doesn't downgrade him in my eyes.

Lillee in Windies broke down in the one test he played from stress fractures making it upto him, but other than that, he did well against an excellent Windies in WSC in 1979 if you take those seriously .

All in all, from my new ball bowler, one of the most important qualities is the skill to run through lineups and I think those two do it a little bit better in comparison to Wasim, that is why I put them ahead.
 
Last edited:

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Allan Donald simply has by far the best record of the four. Obviously, all have a flaw as compared to the "top 5", but Donald's statistical record actually falls more in line with the top group than with the 3 in this thread. I will present on 3 criteria: Era adjusted away and home average ratios, era adjusted strike rate ratio, and WPI.

Average RatiosAH
Marshall21.57/32.66
0.660440906​
20.06/31.62
0.634408602​
McGrath20.81/32.48
0.64070197​
22.43/33.87
0.662237969​
Hadlee21.72/32.69
0.664423371​
22.96/32.14
0.714374611​
Steyn24.91/33.95
0.733726068​
21.62/30.36
0.712121212​
Ambrose20.78/31.84
0.652638191​
21.19/29.46
0.71928038​
Donald22.96/31.85
0.720879121​
21.64/29.61
0.730834178​
Akram24.44/32.17
0.759714019​
22.22/30.45
0.729720854​
Lillee24.28/32.93
0.737321591​
23.73/30.80
0.770454545​
Trueman26.08/31.75
0.821417323​
20.04/27.70
0.723465704​
SR Ratio
Marshall46.7/70.6
0.661473088​
McGrath51.9/66.7
0.778110945​
Hadlee50.8/71.7
0.708507671​
Steyn42.3/63.4
0.667192429​
Ambrose54.5/68.4
0.796783626​
Donald47.0/68.5
0.686131387​
Akram54.6/69.4
0.786743516​
Lillee52.0/72.8
0.714285714​
Trueman49.4/80.3
0.615193026​
WPI
Marshall376/151
2.490066225​
McGrath563/243
2.316872428​
Hadlee431/150
2.873333333​
Steyn439/171
2.567251462​
Ambrose405/179
2.262569832​
Donald330/129
2.558139535​
Akram414/181
2.287292818​
Lillee355/132
2.689393939​
Trueman307/127
2.417322835​

As you can see, Donald simply ends up much closer to the top group than any of the others, and is in fact seems to belong more to them than the famous foursome in question.
Donald's record is boosted by playing less series away outside Aus and Eng and more concentrated around his peak. Compared to others in the top ten he had the shortest career. Add a couple more years like the others and his record won't be as impressive.

His peer rating is the worst if the four. Out of around 30 ATG XIs selected by cricketers of his time, he was selected once.
 
Last edited:

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lillee has very few matches in the subcontinent, and had pretty horrid returns in the few that he played there. I think it's pretty fair to say that he could make hay in better conditions, particularly in England, but could have struggled to penetrate on flatter decks, regardless of his pace and aggression. He should get some credit for WSC against tough opposition, but it's hard to say how much. His average still was higher in those matches, which is to be expected against higher quality. Regardless at best it would move him up to the level of Wasim at most in my eyes, no higher.
Lillee has tok few matches in SC to judge him on. His hole is less games there not failing on flat decks.

Even with a tad higher average in some certain he had high wicket hauls which is what matters.
 

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
Donald's record is boosted by playing less series away outside Aus and Eng and more concentrated around his peak. Compared to others in the top ten he had the shortest career. Add a couple more years like the others and his record won't be as impressive.

His peer rating is the worst if the four. Out of around 30 ATG XIs selected by cricketers of his time, he was selected once.
Eww, bad argument is bad. Lot of variation here from "peer consensus" and CW, but I guess some people will take it more into consideration, meh.

On the other argument, I will grant some of it, but out of the players with smaller than a full career Test sample size, his might actually be a case where it hurts him more than it helps him. By the time SA was admitted, and he could play his first Test Donald was already 25, going on 26 later that year. If anything he got some of his peak years cut, while at the same time getting all of his decline, already hurting his average. I won't extrapolate like many players like to do with SA players, but at the very least I can't hold a somewhat shorter career (still played 72 Tests, more than Trueman at least anyway) against him, given his circumstances being a bit unique.
 

Top