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Shaun Pollock vs Fred Trueman

Better test bowler?


  • Total voters
    21

Johan

International Coach
His time with McGrath overlapped with when he was a poorer bowler, so yeah I think if McGrath wasn't there his average would have gone up a point or two, especially in his 98 to 2001 phase. Also especially in Australia in the 2000s, he averages 30 anyways and without McGrath it likely would be higher.
I thought about this, and I feel like it's overstated and it's a two way thing, McGrath with initial spells generally took out the top order so Warne didn't have to bowl to set openers or number 3s, while in return, Warne got rid of the middle order and the lower order so McGrath didn't have to come back to bowl to set middle order bats with the old ball, both helped each other in a sense, you can't downgrade one but not the other.
 
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ataraxia

International Coach
It is seriously bad that some English greats get passes for very small or frankly awful overseas records. Most of the forum ranks away performances higher than home performances, so why do Trueman and Compton still get rated so highly?
 

Johan

International Coach
Most of the forum ranks away performances higher than home performances, so why do Trueman and Compton still get rated so highly?
Whom of them has an awful overseas record? Trueman won a series in West Indies for England in over 2 decades and saved an Ashes. though IIRC Compton lost to Kohli last poll so fair to say he doesn't get a pass anyway. Though PEWS himself rates Compton (36 away) over Barrington (70 away) so maybe you can ask him.

Hammond's English Ashes record is objectively a bigger issue than Trueman's Australian Ashes record.
 
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subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I thought about this, and I feel like it's overstated and it's a two way thing, McGrath with initial spells generally took out the top order so Warne didn't have to bowl to set openers or number 3s, while in return, Warne got rid of the middle order and the lower order so McGrath didn't have to come back to bowl to set middle order bats with the old ball, both helped each other in a sense, you can't downgrade one but not the other.
That didn't address my point. McGrath was there mostly at a time when Warne was a slightly lesser bowler 98 onwards, and that definitely gave his stats a slight boost. Warne in Aus in the 2000s would have had to slog through much longer spells without him as he wasnt as effective at home. More wickets but higher average.
 

Johan

International Coach
That didn't address my point. McGrath was there mostly at a time when Warne was a slightly lesser bowler 98 onwards, and that definitely gave his stats a slight boost. Warne in Aus in the 2000s would have had to slog through much longer spells without him as he wasnt as effective at home. More wickets but higher average.
we have the statistic.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It is seriously bad that some English greats get passes for very small or frankly awful overseas records. Most of the forum ranks away performances higher than home performances, so why do Trueman and Compton still get rated so highly?
Ive argued this about Trueman with Johan. I think he is too lenient on his away record. He calls him the most destructive pacer due to exceptional SR but that was entirely at home.
 

Johan

International Coach
Ive argued this about Trueman with Johan. I think he is too lenient on his away record. He calls him the most destructive pacer due to exceptional SR but that was entirely at home.
No it's moreso I recognise his sample size away from home is low (1960 West Indies, 1962-63 Ashes) with an injury series (1958-59 Ashes) and a very problematic early career tour (1954) but people he's often compared to like Donald, Akram and Lillee don't have anything away from home that I can't see Trueman replicating. People I have over Trueman have serieses that I can't see Freddie replicating, Imran in West Indies, Ambrose and Hadlee in Australia, McGrath in England/West Indies, Marshall and Steyn in India etc

Often times I have opinions that are not matched by away records, I have Root over Barrington even though Root averages 47 away while Barrington 70, I have Gooch over Gower even though Gower has easily the better away record, or Compton over Boycott even though Geoffrey has a far better away record yada yada yada.
 
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kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Top 10 pacers

1. Malcolm Marshall - Most complete skill set and record in the history of the game. He succeeded in all conditions and versus all opponents. Most adaptable of the ATG quicks, he was express and could be your enforcer, slow in marginally down and swing it both directions, or slow it right down and bowl cutters. Most important player on one of the two greatest teams of all time with a stellar peer rating.

2. Glenn McGrath - He adapted from the 90's to the flat pitch era with no drop off. Arguably the most accurate bowler in the history of the game and no one did more with less. Pin point accuracy, subtle seam movement and disconcerting bounce was all he needed. He, like Marshall had a penchant for removing top order batsmen and also was the key to arguably the greatest team of all time. One of the only two bowlers in contention for me for the GOAT debate.

3. Richards Hadlee - He was New Zealand during the 80's. No AT fast bowler carried a heavier bowling work load and he did it admirably. While not express, especially during his prime, he was the ultimate swing bowler and undoubtedly New Zealand's greatest ever cricketer.

4. Dale Steyn - He never stopped attacking, he was always going for the outside edge, and his stellar s/r is testament to that. He was immense at home and in India, the toughest of challenges, and was the greatest of his era, also being the catalyst of one of the best teams of all time.

5. Shane Warne - Does anyone have a better peer rating, the list of batsmen who call him the greatest is as distinguished as anyone's. Yes McGrath often started it, but Warne was the ultimate closer and match winner. What sets him apart from other AT spinners was that he didn't have the most ideal conditions at home and still dominated.

6. Curtly Ambrose - The exact polar opposite of Steyn, if he decided you weren't going to score, he was unhittable. In his earlier days he was also among the most destructive bowlers of all time, especially dominant vs Australia, the best batting lineup and team of his era. Prior to his surgery, he was the best bowler in the world and the est of that era.

7. Muralitharan - The one unbreakable record, like Hadlee he was SL and bore the lion share of the bowling load. He was a Colossus at home and quite a few other places as well, notably England.

8. Imran Khan - The greatest home peak ever and great performances in most countries. He pioneered reverse swing and mentored another top 15 performer as well. Injuries denied him wickets during his peak, but he came back as good as ever with possibly his best overseas series post initial retirement.

9. Dennis Lillee- The Godfather of modern fast bowling, he reignited the force that was Australian cricket. When he retired he was arguably the GOAT with an unmatched peer rating during the 70's. Like many here he had to reinvent himself after a severe injury and that he did, reaching previously unreached heights and dominating both tests and WSC.

For 10th, all of Donald, Holding, O'Reilly, Trueman and Wasim, possibly even Lindwall are equally worthy and I'll plead the 5th on this one.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Whom of them has an awful overseas record? Trueman won a series in West Indies for England in over 2 decades and saved an Ashes. though IIRC Compton lost to Kohli last poll so fair to say he doesn't get a pass anyway. Though PEWS himself rates Compton (36 away) over Barrington (70 away) so maybe you can ask him.

Hammond's English Ashes record is objectively a bigger issue than Trueman's Australian Ashes record.
Trueman played only 20 out of 67 or whatever tests overseas, in which he performed a lot worse. This makes his average significantly better than it should've been (if he'd played equally home and away).

It's personal opinion whether you rate better away players better overall: there are strong arguments either way. I'm just expressing that I find it strange that very few people dunk on Compton like they do on say Walcott.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Top 10 pacers

1. Malcolm Marshall - Most complete skill set and record in the history of the game. He succeeded in all conditions and versus all opponents. Most adaptable of the ATG quicks, he was express and could be your enforcer, slow in marginally down and swing it both directions, or slow it right down and bowl cutters. Most important player on one of the two greatest teams of all time with a stellar peer rating.

2. Glenn McGrath - He adapted from the 90's to the flat pitch era with no drop off. Arguably the most accurate bowler in the history of the game and no one did more with less. Pin point accuracy, subtle seam movement and disconcerting bounce was all he needed. He, like Marshall had a penchant for removing top order batsmen and also was the key to arguably the greatest team of all time. One of the only two bowlers in contention for me for the GOAT debate.

3. Richards Hadlee - He was New Zealand during the 80's. No AT fast bowler carried a heavier bowling work load and he did it admirably. While not express, especially during his prime, he was the ultimate swing bowler and undoubtedly New Zealand's greatest ever cricketer.

4. Dale Steyn - He never stopped attacking, he was always going for the outside edge, and his stellar s/r is testament to that. He was immense at home and in India, the toughest of challenges, and was the greatest of his era, also being the catalyst of one of the best teams of all time.

5. Shane Warne - Does anyone have a better peer rating, the list of batsmen who call him the greatest is as distinguished as anyone's. Yes McGrath often started it, but Warne was the ultimate closer and match winner. What sets him apart from other AT spinners was that he didn't have the most ideal conditions at home and still dominated.

6. Curtly Ambrose - The exact polar opposite of Steyn, if he decided you weren't going to score, he was unhittable. In his earlier days he was also among the most destructive bowlers of all time, especially dominant vs Australia, the best batting lineup and team of his era. Prior to his surgery, he was the best bowler in the world and the est of that era.

7. Muralitharan - The one unbreakable record, like Hadlee he was SL and bore the lion share of the bowling load. He was a Colossus at home and quite a few other places as well, notably England.

8. Imran Khan - The greatest home peak ever and great performances in most countries. He pioneered reverse swing and mentored another top 15 performer as well. Injuries denied him wickets during his peak, but he came back as good as ever with possibly his best overseas series post initial retirement.

9. Dennis Lillee- The Godfather of modern fast bowling, he reignited the force that was Australian cricket. When he retired he was arguably the GOAT with an unmatched peer rating during the 70's. Like many here he had to reinvent himself after a severe injury and that he did, reaching previously unreached heights and dominating both tests and WSC.

For 10th, all of Donald, Holding, O'Reilly, Trueman and Wasim, possibly even Lindwall are equally worthy and I'll plead the 5th on this one.
Why Murali behind Ambrose though? I think Warne and Murali are close enough to not be separated.
 

Johan

International Coach
Trueman played only 20 out of 67 or whatever tests overseas, in which he performed a lot worse. This makes his average significantly better than it should've been (if he'd played equally home and away).

It's personal opinion whether you rate better away players better overall: there are strong arguments either way. I'm just expressing that I find it strange that very few people dunk on Compton like they do on say Walcott.
He had an injury in 1958-59 in Australia and wouldn't have played if England didn't get mauled the first two tests, he toured again in 1962-63 which was a very high scoring series, averaged 26, West Indies in 1960 was also played on batting paradises and he averaged 26 and was crucial to winning the series. Those are the only two tours they took him on and he did very well even on the roads (for reference, 7 of the games drew), if he got easier tours like South Africa/India/Pakistan his away average would come down exponentially.

I think Weekes destroyed Compton in their poll and he also has away problems, Barry doesn't even have a test record and beat Compton 6-2, every Compton topic is also just Coronis going on about how Compton faked a knee injury in 1950 or smth.
 
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Johan

International Coach
Compton beat Kohli 11 to 7 BTW Johan.
Apologies, I was talking about this.

 

Johan

International Coach
Actual performances > hypothetical performances
Sure, they deserve credit for it but If you think I'm gonna decide my top ten because of dominating the lineup of Knight-Atherton-Hussein-Keeper Stewart-Ramprakash-Injured Thorpe on fast bowling friendly wickets than I think I don't have the same view of Cricket as many.

for example, I upgraded Wasim over Donald recently just because Wasim's performance away from home were impressive to me.
 
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