Bradman vs Viv (against pace)

[PlayerComparisons]

Who would you pick against an ATG pace attack?

 

[Johan]

what's the point of comparing any batsman to Bradman? useless topic.

 

[Migara]

Viv. Played greater pacemen. And put him there on a body line attack, he would still score heavily, because unlike Brandamn, he backed himself to hit sixes over out long fielders. Some of Viv's strokes don't make sense. He coukd have hit fours, but goes for the glory just to intimidate the opposition.

If you put Viv and Bradman against WI pace quartret, how much do you think each will average?

 

[vidiq]

Viv. Played greater pacemen. And put him there on a body line attack, he would still score heavily, because unlike Brandamn, he backed himself to hit sixes over out long fielders. Some of Viv's strokes don't make sense. He coukd have hit fours, but goes for the glory just to intimidate the opposition.

If you put Viv and Bradman against WI pace quartret, how much do you think each will average?

Bradman - around 60
Viv - around 40.

 

[DrWolverine]

Bradman > Any batsman

 

[subshakerz]

what's the point of comparing any batsman to Bradman? useless topic.

Lol many of the topics you posted recently have been fairly one-sided too.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Bradman easy. If Viv was anything close in any regard to Bradman, he wouldn’t have averaged barely over 50.

 

[Migara]

Bradman - around 60
Viv - around 40.

Yet he couldn't do it against English attack going bodyline which was few rungs below. And averaged 70 against WI. IIRC Constantaine was way slower than Marshall and co.

 

[Johan]

Yet he couldn't do it against English attack going bodyline which was few rungs below. And averaged 70 against WI. IIRC Constantaine was way slower than Marshall and co.

Bodyline is more about the field setting than the pace, that is what gets you with bodyline, no one else has had to play Bodyline so the equivalence is false.

 

[Migara]

Bodyline is more about the field setting than the pace, that is what gets you with bodyline, no one else has had to play Bodyline so the equivalence is false.

Exactly what I said. If anyone had technique to counter body line, it was Viv.

And my point of Bradman averaging 70 vs WI stands. And Bradman didn't play outside Australia and England much. Viv has been in all those situations. So I don't take their averages as representative of the opposition they played.

 

[Johan]

Exactly what I said. If anyone had technique to counter body line, it was Viv.

And my point of Bradman averaging 70 vs WI stands. And Bradman didn't play outside Australia and England much. Viv has been in all those situations. So I don't take their averages as representative of the opposition they played.

He doesn't, his hook shot would get him in trouble with Jardine's field settings, frankly speaking, Put Viv in Bradman's shoes and I think he'd average above 40 but sub 50, Bradman averaged near 60.

75, and his inferior in Jack Hobbs averaged 100+ against the same West Indies over the course of an entire tour, Bradman himself was averaging 101 against West Indies after 4 games, just had one bad inning.

 

[Coronis]

He doesn't, his hook shot would get him in trouble with Jardine's field settings, frankly speaking, Put Viv in Bradman's shoes and I think he'd average above 40 but sub 50, Bradman averaged near 60.

75, and his inferior in Jack Hobbs averaged 100+ against the same West Indies over the course of an entire tour, Bradman himself was averaging 101 against West Indies after 4 games, just had one bad inning.

iirc McCabe’s aggressive attacking and hooking worked really well in that one innings. How well did it serve in the other 9 innings?

 

[Johan]

iirc McCabe’s aggressive attacking and hooking worked really well in that one innings. How well did it serve in the other 9 innings?

Rather badly I'd say, 198 runs @ 22 with 1 fifty

 

[Coronis]

Rather badly I'd say, 198 runs @ 22 with 1 fifty

(it was rhetorical but thanks for hammering the point)

 

[Migara]

He doesn't, his hook shot would get him in trouble with Jardine's field settings, frankly speaking, Put Viv in Bradman's shoes and I think he'd average above 40 but sub 50, Bradman averaged near 60.

75, and his inferior in Jack Hobbs averaged 100+ against the same West Indies over the course of an entire tour, Bradman himself was averaging 101 against West Indies after 4 games, just had one bad inning.

Viv Hooked Lillee, Thompson, Pascoe, Hogg to oblivion. Voce and Larwood are no way a bodily or a pacewise threat for Viv. He will excel. Bradman may average better than him under any other circumstances, but Bodyline is just playing into Viv's game and ego, and that's his game.

Bradman averaged 70 against WI. That is that. Hobbs averaging 100 means the bowling was not that great, and there was an element in that attack that Bradman did not like. We can easily expect that "thing"to persist overmany generatios of fast bowling. Even today fast bowlers of various regions work slightly different to each other.

 

[Coronis]

Viv Hooked Lillee, Thompson, Pascoe, Hogg to oblivion. Voce and Larwood are no way a bodily or a pacewise threat for Viv. He will excel. Bradman may average better than him under any other circumstances, but Bodyline is just playing into Viv's game and ego, and that's his game.

Bradman averaged 70 against WI. That is that. Hobbs averaging 100 means the bowling was not that great, and there was an element in that attack that Bradman did not like. We can easily expect that "thing"to persist overmany generatios of fast bowling. Even today fast bowlers of various regions work slightly different to each other.

It seems you have difficulty differentiating regular short pitched bowling and bodyline tactics.

 

[kyear2]

Bradman easy. If Viv was anything close in any regard to Bradman, he wouldn’t have averaged barely over 50.

Bradman is the best batsman ever, no argument it complaint there.

Bradman also played in 3 of the 4 flattest decades of the sport. It was so obviously one-sided, that they spiced up the pitches (everywhere but the Caribbean) after he retired and probably went a tad too far and we got the 50's.

He also never faced any pacer that approached the quality of any of the WI quartet, Marshall, Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, the Ws, Donald, McGrath, Trueman, Davidson etc etc.

So while we can say that he was the best batsman ever, on what basis are we staying that he was the best vs pace, far less elite pace?

And this is open to any member of the forum.

 

[Johan]

Viv Hooked Lillee, Thompson, Pascoe, Hogg to oblivion. Voce and Larwood are no way a bodily or a pacewise threat for Viv. He will excel. Bradman may average better than him under any other circumstances, but Bodyline is just playing into Viv's game and ego, and that's his game.

Bradman averaged 70 against WI. That is that. Hobbs averaging 100 means the bowling was not that great, and there was an element in that attack that Bradman did not like. We can easily expect that "thing"to persist overmany generatios of fast bowling. Even today fast bowlers of various regions work slightly different to each other.

I think you're struggling to see the difference between Bodyline tactics and Good short pitched pace bowling, Yes Viv hooked some of the great bowlers, but not when the opposition captain can just put like 3-4 fielders just to counteract hooking and pulling strokes, you can't do that in modern games. Leg theory forces you to rely solely on cuts and pulls, defense gets you out, and even hooking and pulling becomes much harder than normal because of the unrestricted fielding positioning. The probability of survival/run scoring falls, for Bradman it went from around 99 to 60 I think, Viv's output is already 50-55, it'd fall further with Jardine's methods.

1. It's Jack Hobbs, he is above anyone in history that is not named Donald Bradman, the bowling was the same as what Bradman faced.

2. Bradman getting out to a single delivery from Herman Griffith is not evidence he'd struggle against pace, just a year earlier he almost finished Larwood's career in 1930 Ashes by just brutally obliterating him, and he was a yard or so faster than the carribean pacers and was a better bowler.

 

[kyear2]

Bodyline is more about the field setting than the pace, that is what gets you with bodyline, no one else has had to play Bodyline so the equivalence is false.

Body line tactics were used by Lindwall and Miller, then by Martindale and Constantine vs Hammond in the Caribbean, and what Lillee and Thompson, and the initial quartet, especially Croft and Holding when the mood struck him, used to dish out put it to shame.

It wasn't the extra fielders that causes the problem, it was risk to life and limb and the restriction on scoring without risking same that was the problem.

Do you believe it was the tactics and the risks or the field placing that cause outrage and condemnation?

Serious question.

 

[Johan]

Body line tactics were used by Lindwall and Miller, then by Martindale and Constantine vs Hammond in the Caribbean, and what Lillee and Thompson, and the initial quartet, especially Croft and Holding when the mood struck him, used to dish out put it to shame.

It wasn't the extra fielders that causes the problem, it was risk to life and limb and the restriction on scoring without risking same that was the problem.

Do you believe it was the tactics and the risks or the field placing that cause outrage and condemnation?

Serious question.

all the factors can play a role.

The Original Bodyline that was deployed was unrestricted from fielding restrictions, thus fundamentally it was probably the worst usage of it so far, not only did it retain the later's risk of life and to the limbs and to organs, but the fielding setting was so outrageous that it just became impossible to score consistently in those contexts

Lindwall and Miller's bodyline tactics were not the same, because they had to abide by the fielding restrictions, if the original Bodyline that Jardine deployed in Australia was a two pronged attack, combination of genuinely threatening the lives and wellbeing of the batters and using that to get a catch near the batter, the bodyline that Miller and Lindwall deployed was only a cheap imitation and was basically glorified short pitched fast bowling.

Short pitched bowling had been around for years, the West Indies deployed it against England in 1928, and Ted McDonald used quality short pitched pace bowling his whole career, it was the leg side fielding placement trick combined with actual instict to hurt batters that made Bodyline so dangerous. The Fielding trick did not exist after 1934, so fundamentally it left Bodyline impossible in its full capacity.