Smith vs Lara vs Viv - Who has had the best god mode?

[OverratedSanity]

Subs insisted the fact that Cronje dismissed Sachin more than Donald means the issues are with Cronje and not Donald and that was somehow better, I don't know

It's not "better" per say, but isn't it obvious that when we're talking about how a batsman played a particular bowler, it matters how he actually batted against that particular bowler. Otherwise what are we even doing.

 

[Johan]

It's not "better" per say, but isn't it obvious that when we're talking about how a batsman played a particular bowler, it matters how he actually batted against that particular bowler. Otherwise what are we even doing.

I'm not critiquing Subs's argument, just mentioning it, I get what the argument means but I think the whole head to head concept is a bit silly anyway.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yes.

Viv emerged with by far the best numbers against the ATG pacers of his era, Sachin emerged a bit ahead of Lara and Smith I think solely due to Steyn, Smith and Lara were in a similar position. Viv was leading the pack quite decisively there.

The only reason Viv is ahead is because he barely faced any attacks with multiple ATG bowler like Sachin and Lara had to. It's a lopsided advantage. Every attack apart from Viv's own team in his era at most had one ATG bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not "better" per say, but isn't it obvious that when we're talking about how a batsman played a particular bowler, it matters how he actually batted against that particular bowler. Otherwise what are we even doing.

Especially if we are assessing skills against high quality pace I don't see how him failing against Cronje is relevant.

 

[Johan]

The only reason Viv is ahead is because he barely faced any attacks with multiple ATG bowler like Sachin and Lara had to. It's a lopsided advantage. Every attack apart from Viv's own team in his era at most had one ATG bowler.

I mean there's truth to it but Smith and Sobers functionally had a similar set of "One ATG" type attacks.

 

[subshakerz]

The only reason Viv is ahead is because he barely faced any attacks with multiple ATG bowler like Sachin and Lara had to. It's a lopsided advantage. Every attack apart from Viv's own team in his era at most had one ATG bowler.

Somewhat fair. For example, Tendulkar did Viv level against Steyn when it was only one ATG pacer.

 

[ankitj]

All of them

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Somewhat fair. For example, Tendulkar did Viv level against Steyn when it was only one ATG pacer.

Um Pakistan had Wasim and Imran when Viv made runs in 1988. I know i know, Wasim was young bla bla bla but it's very rare you'll find two atg fast bowlers in similar form, peaking at the same time. When Wasim was the man in the 90s, Waqar was great for what 4 years or so, not much more after. Pollock and Donald probably overlapped in greatness for a short period. Ambroses peak was until his surgery and he was very good but no where close to the same after, while Walsh was getting better and better til the end.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

The only reason Viv is ahead is because he barely faced any attacks with multiple ATG bowler like Sachin and Lara had to. It's a lopsided advantage. Every attack apart from Viv's own team in his era at most had one ATG bowler.

He didn't face more than one atg bowler but for example in Australia 75-76 he faced an attack bowling at an atg level.

 

[subshakerz]

He didn't face more than one atg bowler but for example in Australia 75-76 he faced an attack bowling at an atg level.

Sure but he averaged less than 40 that series.

 

[kyear2]

Especially if we are assessing skills against high quality pace I don't see how him failing against Cronje is relevant.

Didn't we just cover this two pages ago?

Vs the South Africa

Donald vs Lara - 6 from 10
Donald vs Sachin - 5 from 11

Pollock vs Lara - 3 from 15
Pollock vs Tendulkar - 4 from 12

I swear you just create false narratives. There isn't a significant difference in the rate that either batsman was dismissed by Donald and Pollock as opposed to the other bowlers in the team.

This Cronje argument is abject nonsense.

 

[kyear2]

The only reason Viv is ahead is because he barely faced any attacks with multiple ATG bowler like Sachin and Lara had to. It's a lopsided advantage. Every attack apart from Viv's own team in his era at most had one ATG bowler.

Ok, so which multiple ATG attacks did Sachin face?

Wasim and Waqar.
Waqar played all of two matches in '89 and by the time Sachin faced them again in 2000, was "done". In fact, as per the dates used repeatedly on this very forum to denote the peaks of both bowlers, Sachin manged not to face either during said years.

Ambrose and Walsh.
Technically Walsh wasn't an ATG bowler, but for the sake of this discussion, we proceed. Sachin never faced Sir. Curtly before the surgery, and there after he wasn't the same bowler. He lost a good amount of his speed and was not quite capable of the destructive spells as he was prior.

Donald and Pollock.
Pollock came in quite a few years after Donald, but they did have the biggest overlap of the ATG pacers. Though according to Cricinfo (and I don't have the time to verify right now, and so for now, I'll not take it as fact), he faced off against both in only 5 tests?

You make the point through, that the couplings that Sachin had to face were the only reason Viv is ahead, but that's more in name than performance. You say that Wasim was still good in 2000, fine but doesn't take away from the fact that Sachin still didn't face him on his absolute prime, as Lara did.

But by that same token, one can argue that the only reason Sachin is ahead overall is because outside of the ARG, Vivian didn't have the flat home pitches that Sachin was privy to, and never came close to having the luxury of the flat pitch era of the 2000's that Sachin did, nor played against as anywhere close to as many minnows.

Sachin very much matched Lara's performances against the great bowlers of the 90's, they both struggled, and wasn't close to Viv's performances vs the great pacers of his.

With relation to this thread, in god mode you couldn't bowl to Lara. So while we've reached a place where there's little doubt among most about who's the greater between the Prince and the little master, for me Lara was always better.

 

[subshakerz]

Didn't we just cover this two pages ago?

Vs the South Africa

Donald vs Lara - 6 from 10
Donald vs Sachin - 5 from 11

Pollock vs Lara - 3 from 15
Pollock vs Tendulkar - 4 from 12

I swear you just create false narratives. There isn't a significant difference in the rate that either batsman was dismissed by Donald and Pollock as opposed to the other bowlers in the team.

This Cronje argument is abject nonsense.

Why are you bringing Pollock? Nobody has issues with Lara vs medium pace.

As for Donald, I already told you. When Donald was at his peak peak in the 90s, he dismissed Lara six times in six tests and Lara had the 2001 series when Donald was near retirement when he got some parity.

I know context is poison for you but thats the reality. Against peak pace Donald in the 90s, Lara struggled more and anybody who watched them can tell you that.

 

[Johan]

Dear God

 

[subshakerz]

Ok, so which multiple ATG attacks did Sachin face?

More than Viv did, which is the point, and that's not including McWarne.

Wasim and Waqar.
Waqar played all of two matches in '89 and by the time Sachin faced them again in 2000, was "done". In fact, as per the dates used repeatedly on this very forum to denote the peaks of both bowlers, Sachin manged not to face either during said years.

Ok sure. Wasim was still very good though in that series.

Ambrose and Walsh.
Technically Walsh wasn't an ATG bowler, but for the sake of this discussion, we proceed. Sachin never faced Sir. Curtly before the surgery, and there after he wasn't the same bowler. He lost a good amount of his speed and was not quite capable of the destructive spells as he was prior.

I like how when convenient you decide Ambrose isn't worldclass after his shoulder injury. Walsh was at his peak btw.

Donald and Pollock.
Pollock came in quite a few years after Donald, but they did have the biggest overlap of the ATG pacers. Though according to Cricinfo (and I don't have the time to verify right now, and so for now, I'll not take it as fact), he faced off against both in only 5 tests?

Yes so Tendulkar did face an ATG attack then.

You make the point through, that the couplings that Sachin had to face were the only reason Viv is ahead, but that's more in name than performance. You say that Wasim was still good in 2000, fine but doesn't take away from the fact that Sachin still didn't face him on his absolute prime, as Lara did.

But by that same token, one can argue that the only reason Sachin is ahead overall is because outside of the ARG, Vivian didn't have the flat home pitches that Sachin was privy to, and never came close to having the luxury of the flat pitch era of the 2000's that Sachin did, nor played against as anywhere close to as many minnows.

Sachin very much matched Lara's performances against the great bowlers of the 90's, they both struggled, and wasn't close to Viv's performances vs the great pacers of his.

With relation to this thread, in god mode you couldn't bowl to Lara. So while we've reached a place where there's little doubt among most about who's the greater between the Prince and the little master, for me Lara was always better.

Whatever these arent points related to the argument we are having.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Sure but he averaged less than 40 that series.

Yeah but the argument was that he didn't face any atg attacks with more than one great not him necessarily being successful. I'm just trying to show he did face attacks that were great due to circumstances: Tommo and Dennis at their absolute peak.

He didn't average 40 (really??) but that series made Viv.

 

[subshakerz]

Nobody who watched Lara and Tendulkar throughout the 90s would think Lara was more settled against high pace than Tendulkar. Not only did he struggle more against the respective pacers but it was known that Lara didn't like pace directed at his body.

 

[Coronis]

Nobody who watched Lara and Tendulkar throughout the 90s would think Lara was more settled against high pace than Tendulkar. Not only did he struggle more against the respective pacers but it was known that Lara didn't like pace directed at his body.

tbf, I’m not sure anyone likes things pelted at well over 100 km/h at their body

 

[subshakerz]

tbf, I’m not sure anyone likes things pelted at well over 100 km/h at their body

Sure but he had issues dealing with the bounce.

 

[kyear2]

Why are you bringing Pollock? Nobody has issues with Lara vs medium pace.

As for Donald, I already told you. When Donald was at his peak peak in the 90s, he dismissed Lara six times in six tests and Lara had the 2001 series when Donald was near retirement when he got some parity.

I know context is poison for you but thats the reality. Against peak pace Donald in the 90s, Lara struggled more and anybody who watched them can tell you that.

The point was made that Sachin faced more duos than Vivian did, that's what I was responding to. But as usual you're just fast.

So his peak was 99 and he was done in 2001. The only tour that Donald really looked out to sea was the very last one vs Australia, but ok.

As I clearly pointed out, the dismissal disparity vs Donald and Tendulkar and Donald and Lara are practically the same. And yes, early 99 was Lara's rock bottom, and everyone knows the full context behind all of that as well.

And at the end of the day, they averaged the same against the team, and Donald got him out his fair share of times, as did Pollock.

But again, if you want to bring up peaks, again, Sachin faced neither Wasim nor Waqar during theirs, which you just causally ignored. The same way Donald according to you was last his best, but still performed well, the same can be said of Wasim during that tour, and he was definitely too past his best and Waqar was done.
He also didn't face Ambrose pre surgery.

Not to mention he had the tamer home conditions in the 90's.