Joel Garner vs Dennis Lillee

[Johan]

Come on dude.

what?

 

[Coronis]

How can you see someone as a HTB and simultaneously consider them ATG

My mind is open to a wider and more wonderful reality than yours. You’ll get there.

Being a HTB doesn’t preclude someone from being ATG.

Players I would consider fairly large HTBs but also ATGs

Headley (+30.11)
Pollock (+19.24)
Sobers (+16.07)
Lara (+10.85)
Ponting (+10.57)

Muralitharan (-8.23)
Imran (-6.56)
Trueman (-6.04)
Waqar (-5.77)
Anderson (-5.42)

 

[Johan]

My mind is open to a wider and more wonderful reality than yours. You’ll get there.

Being a HTB doesn’t preclude someone from being ATG.

Players I would consider fairly large HTBs but also ATGs

Headley (+30.11)
Pollock (+19.24)
Sobers (+16.07)
Lara (+10.85)
Ponting (+10.57)

None of those are HTBs, here are some real HTBs

Jayawerdene
Warner
Williamson

 

[Coronis]

None of those are HTBs, here are some real HTBs

Jayawerdene
Warner
Williamson

Personally, if someone averages more than 10 home than away, I’d call them a HTB. 5 for bowlers.

 

[sayon basak]

what?

HTBs can be ATGs, simple.

 

[sayon basak]

Personally, if someone averages more than 10 home than away, I’d call them a HTB. 5 for bowlers.

So if a batter average 65 at home, and 55 away from home, he's a HTB?

 

[Coronis]

So if a batter average 65 at home, and 55 away from home, he's a HTB?

Yep. He’s bullying teams at home, no?

 

[Johan]

Personally, if someone averages more than 10 home than away, I’d call them a HTB. 5 for bowlers.

HTB implies to me that someone has to be underwhelming/subpar away from home, if someone averages 75 at home and 55 away then I won't call them a HTB. If someone averages 75 at home and 35 away then Yeah that's a HTB, someone who needs home tracks to really excell, if someone excells without them to varying degrees anyway them I don't think they are a HTB

 

[sayon basak]

Yep. He’s bullying teams at home, no?

Um, he's bullying away from home too. Calling him HTB is misleading, you know it.

 

[Coronis]

Um, he's bullying away from home too. Calling him HTB is misleading, you know it.

Similar to the fact that a HTB can also be an ATG, you can still have a great away record and also be a HTB.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Weekes and Walcott are HTBs but arguably ATGs

 

[Johan]

I think the assumption with Weekes and Walcott is that if they had better health care and got more shots they'd perform away from home too but I don't think they're unequivocally regarded as ATGs in modern times.

 

[shortpitched713]

Tests involving both Lillee and Garner

6 matches 12 innings

Lillee 28 @ 24.35
Garner 26 @ 22.15

Notably Holding had 38 @ 17.44 in those 6 matches.

Lillee only played county once, in 1988 after Garner had retired. However, Garner did participate in the 82/83 Sheffield Shield

Garner 8 matches 15 innings 55 @ 17.74
Lillee 6 matches 11 innings 22 @ 27.50

Nobody else took 40 wickets that season, only one bowler (Rackemann 23 @ 11.91 in 3 games) averaged lower than Garner.

So Garner always outperformed Lillee in these circumstances.

That's why he's one of the GOATs of fast bowling.

 

[shortpitched713]

Following up on this, that season the teams played 2 matches. (notably, both teams were at the very top of the ladder - unsure what the distinction between NSW making the final and SA not making it was, but NSW beat WA in the final anyway. Lillee did not play in the final, all teams played 10 games.

First match: drawn at the WACA
SA 288 (Lillee 4/72)
WA 324 (Garner 3/87)
SA 387/7d (Lillee 0/58)
WA 209/6 (Garner 4/43)

Second match: WA win at Adelaide by an innings (Garner didn’t play)

I see a trend of Garner outperforming Lillee.

And yet Lillee leads this poll.

 

[shortpitched713]

A low average is good but wickets per match is also important.

Be like Murali. Have both.

 

[shortpitched713]

My mind is open to a wider and more wonderful reality than yours. You’ll get there.

Being a HTB doesn’t preclude someone from being ATG.

Players I would consider fairly large HTBs but also ATGs

Headley (+30.11)
Pollock (+19.24)
Sobers (+16.07)
Lara (+10.85)
Ponting (+10.57)

Muralitharan (-8.23)
Imran (-6.56)
Trueman (-6.04)
Waqar (-5.77)
Anderson (-5.42)

You forgot Matthew Hayden and the GOAT Vernon Philander, but I'll let you off this time.

 

[kyear2]

A low average is good but wickets per match is also important.

A low average and low s/r is important, the wickets will come once you have those.

Otherwise it's just volume and / or lack of competition.

 

[kyear2]

then I guess averages + strike rates + marquee performances come more into play and you need all three to be regarded as great

Exactly.

Otherwise it's just accumulating stats

 

[kyear2]

Trueman's SR is the craziest thing considering the norm was 65+

But then, didn't he also mainly bowl in England?

 

[subshakerz]

A low average and low s/r is important, the wickets will come once you have those.

What if the wickets don't come? How on Earth can you treat wickets as an afterthought?