Jasprit Bumrah vs Joel Garner

[Johan]

Trueman would probably end up with a sub 20 average if he got to play all his away tours instead of just being called for the flattest ones and dropped when MCC deemed an away series "easy"

 

[Thala_0710]

GOATs: Marshall, McGrath, Barnes
Top ATGs: Hadlee, Steyn, Ambrose
Certified ATGs: Imran, Akram, Lillee, Lindwall, Donald, Holding, Garner, Trueman, Bumrah, Davidson
Debatable: Cummins, Rabada, Pollock, Waqar, Walsh, Anderson, Roberts

 

[subshakerz]

Let me out it this way.

If the Squad from Proxima B showed up right now with a time machine, for two tests series, home and away.... The only reason he's not in the XI is because I'm not sure how he holds up, and if he has to be managed through the series and matches themselves.

So right now it's still a toss up between him and Wasim for the spot.

That's the biggest thing right now.

That's funny, having watched Wasim throughout his career and was his biggest fan, my main critique was that he would occasionally wilt under max pressure or big match situations. Waqar was always seen as more mentally tough. It's one reason I'm not so gung ho on having him in my ATG XI, there was a mental edge missing.

 

[subshakerz]

Trueman would probably end up with a sub 20 average if he got to play all his away tours instead of just being called for the flattest ones and dropped when MCC deemed an away series "easy"

View attachment 48669

Sure. I think the same of Lillee in India. Coulda shoulda woulda.

 

[Johan]

Sure. I think the same of Lillee in India. Coulda shoulda woulda.

Not sure, India in Lillee's time was far stronger than Post Hazare India.

 

[Coronis]

Lillee. Trueman.
They rarely played in the subcontinent.

Like @subshakerz said even Ambrose and Garner barely played in Asia and in the few matches he played, their records are not really that impressive.

Garner in Asia 3 matches 5 innings 10 @ 19.20

Other Windies bowlers in those 3 matches

Croft 12 @ 19.83
Clarke 10 @ 17.80
(young) Marshall 7 @ 36.42

 

[Johan]

Garner in Asia played on some of the most absurdly bowler friendly wickets ever Yeah, doesn't count. Ambrose isn't much in Asia either but did amazing in Australia.

 

[centurymaker]

Top order (1-3), Middle order (4-7), Lower order (8-11)
Bumrah: 31.4%, 39.6%, 29%
Garner: 32.8%, 33.6%, 33.6%

https://www.howstat.com/Cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerWicketAnalysisGraph.asp?PlayerID=0590

Number 8's are usually pretty good batters especially in the current era of cricket. So a no.8's wicket should be considered a decent quality wicket (added to middle order for calculations), rather than considered a tailend wicket.

In general, only numbers 9,10 and 11 should be considered tailend wickets.

 

[Thala_0710]

Number 8's are usually pretty good batters especially in the current era of cricket. So a no.8's wicket should be considered a decent quality wicket (added to middle order for calculations), rather than considered a tailend wicket.

In general, only numbers 9,10 and 11 should be considered tailend wickets.

@Coronis your work might not go to waste after all

 

[DrWolverine]

GOATs: Marshall, McGrath, Barnes
Top ATGs: Hadlee, Steyn, Ambrose
Certified ATGs: Imran, Akram, Lillee, Lindwall, Donald, Holding, Garner, Trueman, Bumrah, Davidson

* Mine changes from time to time
Tier 1 : Marshall. Hadlee.
Tier 2 : McGrath. Steyn.
Tier 3 :
Ambrose. Imran. Donald. Holding. Bumrah.
Lillee. Trueman. Garner. Akram. Lindwall. Davidson.

 

[Thala_0710]

* Mine changes from time to time
Tier 1 : Marshall. Hadlee.
Tier 2 : McGrath. Steyn.
Tier 3 :
Ambrose. Imran. Donald. Holding. Bumrah.
Lillee. Trueman. Garner. Akram. Lindwall. Davidson.

Hadlee a tier above McGrath is..... Interesting... Why though?

 

[Coronis]

@Coronis your work might not go to waste after all

Sure.

Anyway, on the topic of tailender wickets I think a subject of say, Hadlee or McGrath really has a point here. Most of us (perhaps not kyear) don’t believe there is a huge gap between their bowling. Then people will mostly just look at their batting averages or runs per innings for comparison. Lets go with the latter.

Hadlee would bring you 23 runs per innings vs McGrath’s 5 (rounded to nearest whole number). But the true value of a lower order bat is the ability to stick around with a batsman from the middle/top order and form a meaningful partnership.

So lets look at balls per innings. McGrath would average 11 balls per innings, whereas Hadlee would average roughly 41 balls per innings. Hypothetically in an ATG XI, you’re most likely to have Gilly or Sobers as the established batsmen who end up batting with the tail. Assuming they face 50% of the remaining balls (its usually more but whatever) that would bring you a total of an extra 42 (Gilchrist) or 34 (Sobers) runs per innings. Is the difference between McGrath and Hadlee that great?

 

[DrWolverine]

Hadlee a tier above McGrath is..... Interesting... Why though?

In terms of pure quality, I wouldn’t place McGrath far above Bumrah, Holding or Donald but what sets him apart is sheer longevity. Even that advantage vanishes the moment you put him next to Richard Hadlee who played longer and had more workload.

I’ve always been skeptical of McGrath’s ability to dismantle lineups on flat, unresponsive tracks. In 16 Tests in Asia, he managed 58 wickets (around 3.6 wickets per match) and only one five-for. That’s solid for normal bowlers but hardly impressive for his calibre.


McGrath was never a lone wolf. He operated within a well-oiled machine surrounded by elite bowlers and backed by a powerhouse batting lineup. Yes, he was a great bowler but there was always a safety net and someone else rose to the occasion on his off days. Hadlee had none of that. He was the bowling attack and he was also the backup plan. Half the time, he was the only reason New Zealand stayed in the game. If he failed, NZ lost. Simple as that. He also had to deliver the bat with some times as well.

 

[Johan]

Sure.

Anyway, on the topic of tailender wickets I think a subject of say, Hadlee or McGrath really has a point here. Most of us (perhaps not kyear) don’t believe there is a huge gap between their bowling. Then people will mostly just look at their batting averages or runs per innings for comparison. Lets go with the latter.

Hadlee would bring you 23 runs per innings vs McGrath’s 5 (rounded to nearest whole number). But the true value of a lower order bat is the ability to stick around with a batsman from the middle/top order and form a meaningful partnership.

So lets look at balls per innings. McGrath would average 11 balls per innings, whereas Hadlee would average roughly 41 balls per innings. Hypothetically in an ATG XI, you’re most likely to have Gilly or Sobers as the established batsmen who end up batting with the tail. Assuming they face 50% of the remaining balls (its usually more but whatever) that would bring you a total of an extra 42 (Gilchrist) or 34 (Sobers) runs per innings. Is the difference between McGrath and Hadlee that great?

Underrated point, had Bumrah and Siraj had the batting skill of Hadlee and Warne, India wins the Lord's test

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Bumrah beating both Garner and Holding!

 

[PlayerComparisons]

GOATs: Marshall, McGrath, Barnes
Top ATGs: Hadlee, Steyn, Ambrose
Certified ATGs: Imran, Akram, Lillee, Lindwall, Donald, Holding, Garner, Trueman, Bumrah, Davidson
Debatable: Cummins, Rabada, Pollock, Waqar, Walsh, Anderson, Roberts

This looks pretty good

 

[centurymaker]

Hadlee over Mcgrath is a no brainer if they are considered to be veryy close in primary discipline.

Also, Cummins should be considered an ATG now imo.

 

[Thala_0710]

Hadlee over Mcgrath is a no brainer if they are considered to be veryy close in primary discipline.

Also, Cummins should be considered an ATG now imo.

It's only primary discipline.
Cummins and Rabada have a good case imo. Was thinking about them

 

[Johan]

they are the bowling equivalents of Weekes and Walcott

 

[centurymaker]

It's only primary discipline.
Cummins and Rabada have a good case imo. Was thinking about them

I am less certain on Rabada. Maybe in 1-2 years