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Ranking the Auxiliary skills in test cricket

Rank them.

  • Slip cordon > lower order batting > 5th bowler

  • Slip cordon > 5th bowler > lower order batting

  • Lower order batting > Slip cordon > 5th bowler

  • Lower order batting > 5th bowler > slip cordon

  • 5th bowler > lower order batting > slip cordon

  • 5th bowler > slip cordon > lower order batting

  • All are equally relevant


Results are only viewable after voting.

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Nobody is replacing Inzi for Richardson. That's mental. And Hammond and Miller are roughly cricketers as good as each other, it depends on the spot you can have either in an ATG XI.

The real question is if you would have Smith or Hammond over Tendulkar based on slips? No.

It's a bogus analogy.
I probably rate Inzi lower than most, don't think either was that special and Richie buys me wickets.

What I find strange though is that many here would take Imran over McGrath, but not Hammond over Sachin.

In fact many, you included wouldn't even take a non bowling Sobers over Sachin.

Even looking at CW rankings.

McGrath and Sachin are both 2nd respectively.

Imran is ranked 8th and Hammond I believe 9th.

There's no difference between the scenarios.

But hypocrisy reigns.
 

Johan

International Coach
I probably rate Inzi lower than most, don't think either was that special and Richie buys me wickets.

What I find strange though is that many here would take Imran over McGrath, but not Hammond over Sachin.

In fact many, you included wouldn't even take a non bowling Sobers over Sachin.

Even looking at CW rankings.

McGrath and Sachin are both 2nd respectively.

Imran is ranked 8th and Hammond I believe 9th.

There's no difference between the scenarios.

But hypocrisy reigns.
Imran's batting is a significantly bigger factor than Hammond's bowling, though Hammond's an underrated bowler.

anyway, I'm one who'd take Hammond over Tendulkar, Tendulkar being a better bat is unquestionably, the gap is marginal and Hammond's ATG fielding and value as a decent fifth bowler makes up the gap, also helps that he was aa competent captain, no Len Hutton or Allan Border, but still a competent strategist and captain unlike Tendulkar.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Imran's batting is a significantly bigger factor than Hammond's bowling, though Hammond's an underrated bowler.

anyway, I'm one who'd take Hammond over Tendulkar, Tendulkar being a better bat is unquestionably, the gap is marginal and Hammond's ATG fielding and value as a decent fifth bowler makes up the gap, also helps that he was aa competent captain, no Len Hutton or Allan Border, but still a competent strategist and captain unlike Tendulkar.
What makes you think I was comparing Imran's batting to Hammond's bowling.

Hammond's secondary skill and comp here is being the GOAT slip.

The bowling was just icing.

And Hutton was an ultra defensive captain.
 

Johan

International Coach
What makes you think I was comparing Imran's batting to Hammond's bowling.

Hammond's secondary skill and comp here is being the GOAT slip.

The bowling was just icing.

And Hutton was an ultra defensive captain.
Sure, But I don't know how to quantify that in blatant terms, and I don't think most would take Hammond the bowler + Hammond the slip over Imran the bat.

He was a brilliant strategist and made most of his arsenal, didn't have the team to be aggressive but took England from a country in rubble and ruin after the War to a hat trick of Ashes victories, and that's all that really matters.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I probably rate Inzi lower than most, don't think either was that special and Richie buys me wickets.

What I find strange though is that many here would take Imran over McGrath, but not Hammond over Sachin.

In fact many, you included wouldn't even take a non bowling Sobers over Sachin.

Even looking at CW rankings.

McGrath and Sachin are both 2nd respectively.

Imran is ranked 8th and Hammond I believe 9th.

There's no difference between the scenarios.

But hypocrisy reigns.
Would you select Smith over Tendulkar based on slips,?

If not then you are the hypocrite.
 

Johan

International Coach
Now that was Hammond was discussed, here is an interesting passage from Hutton's book where he likens Sobers to Hammond and praises Sobers by comparing him to Hammond. Claims that Hammond could bowl Leg breaks and googlies of the highest class.

1000014432.png
1000014433.png
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Now that was Hammond was discussed, here is an interesting passage from Hutton's book where he likens Sobers to Hammond and praises Sobers by comparing him to Hammond. Claims that Hammond could bowl Leg breaks and googlies of the highest class.

View attachment 47701
View attachment 47702
iirc general sentiment was Hammond was a far better bowler than his stats showed, but many times he would just not care that much. When properly motivated he could really devastate sides. If he’d had a different mentality and worked on his bowling we might be talking about him in a whole different light, sadly not to be.

His best season in England, early in his career

1928
35 matches 84 @ 23.10 6 5’fers 2 10’fers SR 51.45

(also scored 2825 runs with 9 tons and took 79 catches that season)
 

Johan

International Coach
iirc general sentiment was Hammond was a far better bowler than his stats showed, but many times he would just not care that much. When properly motivated he could really devastate sides. If he’d had a different mentality and worked on his bowling we might be talking about him in a whole different light, sadly not to be.

His best season in England, early in his career

1928
35 matches 84 @ 23.10 6 5’fers 2 10’fers SR 51.45

(also scored 2825 runs with 9 tons and took 79 catches that season)
Yeah, Bradman found Hammond almost as good as Maurice Tate, Hutton thought of Hammond pretty highly and compared him to Sobers in all round ability (suggested Hammond is the better bat), Bedser said he was a far better bowler than his numbers show etc.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, Bradman found Hammond almost as good as Maurice Tate, Hutton thought of Hammond pretty highly and compared him to Sobers in all round ability (suggested Hammond is the better bat), Bedser said he was a far better bowler than his numbers show etc.
iirc it may have been his 8/25 a few years later but iirc there was an article somewhere about someone pissing him off when he was batting or something else and him coming out and smashing the side. Can’t remember the exact story or source.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Sure, But I don't know how to quantify that in blatant terms, and I don't think most would take Hammond the bowler + Hammond the slip over Imran the bat.

He was a brilliant strategist and made most of his arsenal, didn't have the team to be aggressive but took England from a country in rubble and ruin after the War to a hat trick of Ashes victories, and that's all that really matters.
That's the problem, because it's not easy to quantify it ignored by many here, doesn't make it less important.

Yes, the combination of Hammond's skills are just as critical if not more so than Imran's.

And I've never seen the work brilliant used to describe Hutton's captaincy, outside of you of course.

Good, yeah. Even effective. Never brilliant
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
iirc general sentiment was Hammond was a far better bowler than his stats showed, but many times he would just not care that much. When properly motivated he could really devastate sides. If he’d had a different mentality and worked on his bowling we might be talking about him in a whole different light, sadly not to be.

His best season in England, early in his career

1928
35 matches 84 @ 23.10 6 5’fers 2 10’fers SR 51.45

(also scored 2825 runs with 9 tons and took 79 catches that season)
That's incredible and invaluable.
 

Johan

International Coach
Faulkner maybe, although his batting output in Tests seems to be a lot higher than his actual batting reputation.
I think that comes down to him neglecting his bowling and focusing on his batting in Australia, on easier batting wickets (in comparison to South Africa and England of the time) he was able to make 750 runs in 10 innings but did tank with the bowl, I suspect his Test stats outside of Australia would look very similar to his overall FC numbers.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
I think that comes down to him neglecting his bowling and focusing on his batting in Australia, on easier batting wickets (in comparison to South Africa and England of the time) he was able to make 750 runs in 10 innings but did tank with the bowl, I suspect his Test stats outside of Australia would look very similar to his overall FC numbers.
Tbf his overall FC stats of 37 batting and 17 bowling are pretty WAC. And it is pretty much that of a balanced allrounder given the Era.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
As with all compeditive matches of late, this match showed the value of all aspects of the game.

The catching, especially from India was a complete cluster****, and undoubtedly cost them the game.

The lower order batting wasn't exactly helpful, but they did select Thakur for his batting and it was an equal disaster in terms of him failing and being a down grade on any other possible bowling option.

Every team needs a viable 5th if not also 6th bowling option. It's a non negotiable for multiple reasons. They don't have to be a Miller or Sobers, but can't be a liability or someone you're reluctant to bowl.

You need specialists slips, as I heard Broad say today, it's hard enough trying to take 20 wickets far less 26. You need at least two guys who can turn half chances into wickets and of course take the regulation ones as well.

When you're 6 wickets down while chasing victory or trying to salvage a draw, everyone wants that guy at 8 who can hold on with the bat. There's no doubting the value of a legit no. 8 coming in after the keeper and protecting the tail.

As with all things, it's about balance. Do you lean batting or bowling at no. 6, with only 4 specialist bowlers, how much do you sacrifice bowling for extra runs? How much is good enough at each position? I don't need the deepest tail any more than I would force the perfect cordon.
Down to personal preference no doubt.

With regards to those preferences, the gradient / weighting of skill needed for each of those are different for each position. So, in order...

First comes the 5 / 6th bowling options. No need to be as good as the primary options, your job is to facilitate the rotation, rest for the primary 4 and take on the dog overs. Be solid, reliable and don't release pressure. While not ideal or preferable, the part timer can possibly be, and have most often been utilized here with minimal disruption.

The bowler at 8 / 9 should be able to hold the fort as required, be that batting with the remaining batsman or the tail, or leading the counter if required. No way should a bunny be at 8, but with 7 batsmen ahead of you, it's also not specialist level.

To maximize your attack, your cordon, or at least a couple of it's occupants have to be specialists. Anything less and you're dropping as much as you're catching, and yours losing matches. The entry skill level is going to be higher than the other two at their secondary disciplines.

So while we can argue forever on the merits of each, or the prioritizing of talent, or most essentially, which contributes more consistently, and I've certainly made my arguments for such... There's no doubt that each are vital at some point to the success of a team and / or to winning.

And at the end of the day, that was basically the point of this exercise. We can't pretend one doesn't exist, can be plastered over, or denigrated with semantics.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
To maximize your attack, your cordon, or at least a couple of it's occupants have to be specialists. Anything less and you're dropping as much as you're catching, and yours losing matches. The entry skill level is going to be higher than the other two at their secondary disciplines.
So would you drop Tendulkar to have Steve Smith or Hammond in the slips in your ATG XI? I have asked you this multiple times. Give an answer.

And at the end of the day, that was basically the point of this exercise. We can't pretend one doesn't exist, can be plastered over, or denigrated with semantics.
No the point of the exercise was to show which one was more valuable and you gave no real evidence in favor of slips.
 

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