Ranking the Auxiliary skills in test cricket

[subshakerz]

Lower order batting over all (8/9) still doesn't match the value of a great 3 man cordon. If you can't take your catches you literally can't win tests.

Kyear you are doing this fallacy again.

You are comparing lower order bats with literally slips who can't take catches. You might as well compare that to a team with no no.8 and no.9 to begin with.

Since the beginning you have refused to define the relative value of elite slips to the alternative average standard, but you have done that for the lower order by comparing Warne or Marshall to Imran and Hadlee.

In other words, you make the alternative lower bat seem like a handy Warne whereas your alternative slip is someone incapable of catching. This is weaselly.

All of us defending lower order bats are comparing that with the value of elite slips versus the more common competent slips, not 90s Pakistan slips.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Kyear you are doing this fallacy again.

You are comparing lower order bats with literally slips who can't take catches. You might as well compare that to a team with no no.8 and no.9 to begin with.

Since the beginning you have refused to define the relative value of elite slips to the alternative average standard, but you have done that for the lower order by comparing Warne or Marshall to Imran and Hadlee.

In other words, you make the alternative lower bat seem like a handy Warne whereas your alternative slip is someone incapable of catching. This is weaselly.

All of us defending lower order bats are comparing that with the value of elite slips versus the more common competent slips, not 90s Pakistan slips.

Dude legit compared Hammond, Simpson, Chappell and Hooper in the cordon to Border, Viv, Root and Steve Waugh for 5th bowler!

 

[subshakerz]

Dude legit compared Hammond, Simpson, Chappell and Hooper in the cordon to Border, Viv, Root and Steve Waugh for 5th bowler!

It's so dishonest and he has been repeatedly called out in it.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's so dishonest and he has been repeatedly called out in it.

Like not even a hyperbole, it's like saying bowling isn't as important as batting and provide Agit Agarkar and Don Bradman as examples.

 

[kyear2]

What if the no.8 averages 30 plus with the bat?

If you're asking if I prefer Vetorri at 8 or Waugh Jr at 2nd slip for a test match or series, there's honestly no contest.

 

[subshakerz]

If you're asking if I prefer Vetorri at 8 or Waugh Jr at 2nd slip for a test match or series, there's honestly no contest.

What about Steve Smith at 2nd slip?

 

[kyear2]

Kyear you are doing this fallacy again.

You are comparing lower order bats with literally slips who can't take catches. You might as well compare that to a team with no no.8 and no.9 to begin with.

Since the beginning you have refused to define the relative value of elite slips to the alternative average standard, but you have done that for the lower order by comparing Warne or Marshall to Imran and Hadlee.

In other words, you make the alternative lower bat seem like a handy Warne whereas your alternative slip is someone incapable of catching. This is weaselly.

All of us defending lower order bats are comparing that with the value of elite slips versus the more common competent slips, not 90s Pakistan slips.

The common slip is a Khawaja, Root, the average slip doesn't take the half chances that the elite ones does, and are also likely to drop the average ones as well. Greaves and Campbell are both competent slip fielders. Even Jaiswal prior to the last match was seen as a competent performer in the cordon.

As with other aspects of the sport, there are levels, and increased value as one goes higher, if you want to acknowledge it or not. Where ever possible you need the best available persons in the cordon to give you the best opportunities to take chances.

It's also not a view that I alone hold. I literally asked the most respected and some of the longest tenured members of the forum and they went the same direction. Your guy Kimber goes even harder than I do, I believe the words "means **** all" was referenced with regards to the no. 8 debate. While in a subsequent video it was referenced that slip fielding was increasingly becoming a position that again requires specialists.

You're so hung up and individual names and proving a point. And it's to the point where it's not about arguing a point, you need to be right.

Watch the game, cricket is about moments and difficult and half chances turn games, as does dropped ones.

 

[kyear2]

Dude legit compared Hammond, Simpson, Chappell and Hooper in the cordon to Border, Viv, Root and Steve Waugh for 5th bowler!

And then went back, looked for the best from the field who would legitimately be categorized as 5th bowlers.


You really are taking this **** personal aren't you, consistent pulling up old **** that was subsequently corrected.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And then went back, looked for the best from the field who would legitimately be categorized as 5th bowlers.


You really are taking this **** personal aren't you, consistent pulling up old **** that was subsequently corrected.

Dude, you legit said that. I only brought this up because you literally were again comparing a whole ass cordon to a single no 8, and as well stating that the substitute of that cordon is 90s Pak level. I didn't put words in your mouth, you legit had made those comparisons. You definitely can say you were wrong back then, but can hardly complain if someone brought that up while you are doing the same **** just in a bit different and less lolyfying way. And wtf it has anything to do with being personal???

 

[subshakerz]

The common slip is a Khawaja, Root, the average slip doesn't take the half chances that the elite ones does, and are also likely to drop the average ones as well.

How much of a difference is it really though? Even elite slips do drops. How many catches more are they giving a series?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kyear you are doing this fallacy again.

You are comparing lower order bats with literally slips who can't take catches. You might as well compare that to a team with no no.8 and no.9 to begin with.

Since the beginning you have refused to define the relative value of elite slips to the alternative average standard, but you have done that for the lower order by comparing Warne or Marshall to Imran and Hadlee.

And every time a team puts on an all time terrible catching performance like India did, he usually crawls out and goes "SEE, BAD CATCHING LOSES GAMES".

As though anyone disagrees with that. It's more about what an average set of slip catchers can produce on a regular basis. There's no one on planet earth that disagrees that terrible slip catching cripples a team's chances entirely. But you go from average/decent to great slip catching and there's diminishing returns imo. He's never really argued against that point.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And wtf it has anything to do with being personal???

Pointing out he's wrong is being personal, that's how it works

 

[kyear2]

And every time a team puts on an all time terrible catching performance like India did, he usually crawls out and goes "SEE, BAD CATCHING LOSES GAMES".

As though anyone disagrees with that. It's more about what an average set of slip catchers can produce on a regular basis. There's no one on planet earth that disagrees that terrible slip catching cripples a team's chances entirely. But you go from average/decent to great slip catching and there's diminishing returns imo. He's never really argued against that point.

Literally did above.

Actually quite a few times.

We don't make much different arguments with regards to opposite scenarios.

You try to maximize runs, I try to maximize wickets.

You want to bat deep and get every run, even if it reduces the attack, I just want to maximize the wicket taking potential by choosing the best bowlers and the getting the best fielders in place to catch them.

The great slip cordons I grew up watching didn't just compliment the teams they played on, but helped to elevate them.

 

[kyear2]

Pointing out he's wrong is being personal, that's how it works

No, being a whiny bitch and bringing up unrelated topics and debunked statements is.

No one's pointed out a thing.

 

[subshakerz]

Literally did above.

Actually quite a few times.

Can you give a ballpark estimate what is the return of a elite slip over a normal slip over a series so we can compare with runs in the lower order?

 

[subshakerz]

No, being a whiny bitch and bringing up unrelated topics and debunked statements is.

Nobody called you a whiny bitch, why would you use that to describe yourself?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Nobody called you a whiny bitch, why would you use that to describe yourself?

Read again. The word was used to describe me. If I had returned it in kind, there will be 15 long ass pages on why I am sub human to imply that. Smh

 

[subshakerz]

Read again. The word was used to describe me. If I had returned it in kind, there will be 15 long ass pages on why I am sub human to imply that. Smh

Yeah I know. Just wanted to put a mirror in front of him who is the real whiny one in these chats.

 

[reyrey]

Kyear2 has recently softened his stance on the value of the different skills after some of the recent Test matches. It was in a different thread which could easily have been missed. Maybe that's why he feels attacked with those old posts/views being mentioned again.

Anyway the Kimber post where he thought lower order batting was the least important. He's probably right, but it's only the least important if you actually have a reliable top/middle order. Ideally you'd have that, but the less reliable they are the more important good lower order batting becomes.

5th (and 6th) bowler and the slip cordon are important even if the bowling is good.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah I know. Just wanted to put a mirror in front of him who is the real whiny one in these chats.

You???