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Ranking the Auxiliary skills in test cricket

Rank them.

  • Slip cordon > lower order batting > 5th bowler

  • Slip cordon > 5th bowler > lower order batting

  • Lower order batting > Slip cordon > 5th bowler

  • Lower order batting > 5th bowler > slip cordon

  • 5th bowler > lower order batting > slip cordon

  • 5th bowler > slip cordon > lower order batting

  • All are equally relevant


Results are only viewable after voting.

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Just for kyears clarity, I’d post the what was it, 15 examples you mentioned?
Sure.

Remember Australia had a relatively very good tail of Warne, Brett Lee and Gillespie off and on.

Vs SA 2002, Aus are 6-185 well behind SA as Warne scores a fifty and Gilly a ton as Aus get a matchwinning lead.

Vs Eng 2002, Australia are eight down and 100 behind Eng as Gillespie hangs with Gilly and they achieve parity and win eventually.

Vs Bang 2006 Gillespie hangs with Gilly who scores a ton as they are 250 runs behind and 7 down and they get close enough to eventually win.

Vs Pak 2004, Warne and Gillespie hang around with Langer long enough to take Aus from 230-6 to 381 and win the game.

Vs Eng 2005 Edgbaston as Warne and Brett Lee take Australia from sure loss at 8-175 to near win.

Vs Eng 2005 3rd test Warne and Lee hang with Ponting to draw the game.

Vs Eng 2005 4th test without Lee and Warne Australia likely lose by innings or easy 4th innings chase.

Vs SA 2006 3rd test Lee scores vital runs in both innings to win a close test.

Vs NZ 2001 3rd test without Warnes 99, Australia likely lose the game as they are struggling against a high score.

Vs Ind 2007/8, Aus tail with Symonds takes them from 6-134 to 463.

Vs Ind 2004, Aus are 7-350 in response to 705 and Gillespie helps takes them to 474 and eventually game drawn.

Vs Eng 2001 3rd test Gillespie hangs with Gilly to get them par with England in a low scoring contest.

Vs SL 99, Gillespie with Ponting save Aus from complete embarassment in the 1st innings

Vs WI 99 4th test Aus tail stretches the 1st innings which ends up being vital in winning the test.

There are more but I think I made the point.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sure.

Remember Australia had a relatively very good tail of Warne, Brett Lee and Gillespie off and on.

Vs SA 2002, Aus are 6-185 well behind SA as Warne scores a fifty and Gilly a ton as Aus get a matchwinning lead.

Vs Eng 2002, Australia are eight down and 100 behind Eng as Gillespie hangs with Gilly and they achieve parity and win eventually.

Vs Bang 2006 Gillespie hangs with Gilly who scores a ton as they are 250 runs behind and 7 down and they get close enough to eventually win.

Vs Pak 2004, Warne and Gillespie hang around with Langer long enough to take Aus from 230-6 to 381 and win the game.

Vs Eng 2005 Edgbaston as Warne and Brett Lee take Australia from sure loss at 8-175 to near win.

Vs Eng 2005 3rd test Warne and Lee hang with Ponting to draw the game.

Vs Eng 2005 4th test without Lee and Warne Australia likely lose by innings or easy 4th innings chase.

Vs SA 2006 3rd test Lee scores vital runs in both innings to win a close test.

Vs NZ 2001 3rd test without Warnes 99, Australia likely lose the game as they are struggling against a high score.

Vs Ind 2007/8, Aus tail with Symonds takes them from 6-134 to 463.

Vs Ind 2004, Aus are 7-350 in response to 705 and Gillespie helps takes them to 474 and eventually game drawn.

Vs Eng 2001 3rd test Gillespie hangs with Gilly to get them par with England in a low scoring contest.

Vs SL 99, Gillespie with Ponting save Aus from complete embarassment in the 1st innings

Vs WI 99 4th test Aus tail stretches the 1st innings which ends up being vital in winning the test.

There are more but I think I made the point.
@kyear2 please respond
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Sure.

Remember Australia had a relatively very good tail of Warne, Brett Lee and Gillespie off and on.

Vs SA 2002, Aus are 6-185 well behind SA as Warne scores a fifty and Gilly a ton as Aus get a matchwinning lead.

Vs Eng 2002, Australia are eight down and 100 behind Eng as Gillespie hangs with Gilly and they achieve parity and win eventually.

Vs Bang 2006 Gillespie hangs with Gilly who scores a ton as they are 250 runs behind and 7 down and they get close enough to eventually win.

Vs Pak 2004, Warne and Gillespie hang around with Langer long enough to take Aus from 230-6 to 381 and win the game.

Vs Eng 2005 Edgbaston as Warne and Brett Lee take Australia from sure loss at 8-175 to near win.

Vs Eng 2005 3rd test Warne and Lee hang with Ponting to draw the game.

Vs Eng 2005 4th test without Lee and Warne Australia likely lose by innings or easy 4th innings chase.

Vs SA 2006 3rd test Lee scores vital runs in both innings to win a close test.

Vs NZ 2001 3rd test without Warnes 99, Australia likely lose the game as they are struggling against a high score.

Vs Ind 2007/8, Aus tail with Symonds takes them from 6-134 to 463.

Vs Ind 2004, Aus are 7-350 in response to 705 and Gillespie helps takes them to 474 and eventually game drawn.

Vs Eng 2001 3rd test Gillespie hangs with Gilly to get them par with England in a low scoring contest.

Vs SL 99, Gillespie with Ponting save Aus from complete embarassment in the 1st innings

Vs WI 99 4th test Aus tail stretches the 1st innings which ends up being vital in winning the test.

There are more but I think I made the point.
1. I said Australia had one of the better tails.

2. This also proves.what I have said that batters like Warne and Marshall are more than good enough to man the nom 8 / 9 positions in any team, you don't need the "all rounder" level.

3. I've never said that lower order batting wasn't important. Just not to the point where it required the again, all rounder types. These average guys as I've mentioned were more than good enough.

4. There's an awful lot of "hangs around" being mentioned, like Walsh and Ambrose handing around with Lara, Leach with etc etc. yes, it happens, doesn't mean that you place a focus on it at the detriment of the bowlers, which historically hasn't been done.

5. A lot of those innings were critical to setting up tests to be won, which the bowlers finished were able to complete.

Glenn McGrath break down of test wickets.
Bowled - 76
LBW - 113
Caught - 373

Shane Warne break down of test wickets.
Stumped - 36
Bowled - 46
LBW - 138
Caught - 418


Lower order runs have always been important, a lot of those examples didn't even reference runs, but rather players hanging around with top order batters to facilitate scores. It can bail a team out of a bad situation, but there have been teams, that managed to achieve greatness without the all rounder types, like Australia, WI, SA...

You give that 2002 Australia side a sub par or even average slip cordon, and they don't win the way they did. McGrath and Warne's games and results were melded to the success of their cordons. Warne never had anything short of elite tier catching. Same with the WI teams, and that SA 2008 squad. You mention Philander, one player along with Steyn, Morkel and Adams in the tail, but omit a top 5 cordon ever who snared Steyn's offerings.

You fail to acknowledge that with great fast bowlers taking the ball away, the primary mode, not a mode, the primary mode of dismissals is caught in the cordon. Hadlee, Lillee, Quartet, Marshall, Steyn, Ambrose, and teams build their teams accordingly.
Teams don't specially build their teams to stack the tail.

Steyn isn't Steyn without the cordon support, neither is McWarne, Lillee, Hadlee, the WI guys, none of them.

The last great test series was determined by which catches were taken and which ones weren't. For all the other stuff going on, and among all the auxialry skills, that's was the determinative factor.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
4. There's an awful lot of "hangs around" being mentioned, like Walsh and Ambrose handing around with Lara, Leach with etc etc. yes, it happens, doesn't mean that you place a focus on it at the detriment of the bowlers, which historically hasn't been done.
As I’ve said repeatedly and you seem to fail to grasp, this isn’t what is being done, as people don’t have the same gaps between bowlers that you do.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
3. I've never said that lower order batting wasn't important. Just not to the point where it required the again, all rounder types. These average guys as I've mentioned were more than good enough.
Sorry but you are again shifting goalposts.

In order to emphasize slips, you have consistently downplayed lower order tail batting as something more necessary for weaker teams and and less so for ATG teams. You have maintained your line that 'well I don't see how the tail can bail out an ATG team if Ponting, Waugh, etc. fail'.

Now I have clearly shown how perhaps the best team ever had the tail consistently give key contributions in important games.

The onus is on you to demonstrate with actual evidence, not anecdotes and such, how elite slips matter more. Otherwise it is a baseless assumption worth dismissing.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
4. There's an awful lot of "hangs around" being mentioned, like Walsh and Ambrose handing around with Lara, Leach with etc etc. yes, it happens, doesn't mean that you place a focus on it at the detriment of the bowlers, which historically hasn't been done.
Dude it's simple logic. A better tail has bats who can hang around longer more often. So it matters.
Btw the hang around mentioned they actually scored 20 30 40 odd too.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
2. This also proves.what I have said that batters like Warne and Marshall are more than good enough to man the nom 8 / 9 positions in any team, you don't need the "all rounder" level.
Don't lie. You aren't picking Wasim if he can't bat.

You fail to acknowledge that with great fast bowlers taking the ball away, the primary mode, not a mode, the primary mode of dismissals is caught in the cordon. Hadlee, Lillee, Quartet, Marshall, Steyn, Ambrose, and teams build their teams accordingly.
You have failed to show elite cordons make as much difference.

Teams don't specially build their teams to stack the tail.
They do all the time care about the tail.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
I’ll just submit a team that has it all

Bob Simpson (bat, leg spin, elite slip)
Farohk Engineer (bat, keeper)
Viv Richards (bat, off spin, elite slip)
Wally Hammond (bat, med pace, elite slip)
Mark Waugh (bat, med pace/off, elite slip)
Keith Miller (bat, pace, elite slip)
Jack Gregory (good bat, pace, elite slip)
Richie Benaud (good bat, leg spin, elite gully)
Alan Davidson (handy bat, pace, elite leg slip/gully)
Shane Warne (handy bat, leg spin, good slip)
Joel Garner (handy bat, pace, elite gully)
 

Johan

International Coach
I’ll just submit a team that has it all

Bob Simpson (bat, leg spin, elite slip)
Farohk Engineer (bat, keeper)
Viv Richards (bat, off spin, elite slip)
Wally Hammond (bat, med pace, elite slip)
Mark Waugh (bat, med pace/off, elite slip)
Keith Miller (bat, pace, elite slip)
Jack Gregory (good bat, pace, elite slip)
Richie Benaud (good bat, leg spin, elite gully)
Alan Davidson (handy bat, pace, elite leg slip/gully)
Shane Warne (handy bat, leg spin, good slip)
Joel Garner (handy bat, pace, elite gully)
I love this.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
I’ll just submit a team that has it all

Bob Simpson (bat, leg spin, elite slip)
Farohk Engineer (bat, keeper)
Viv Richards (bat, off spin, elite slip)
Wally Hammond (bat, med pace, elite slip)
Mark Waugh (bat, med pace/off, elite slip)
Keith Miller (bat, pace, elite slip)
Jack Gregory (good bat, pace, elite slip)
Richie Benaud (good bat, leg spin, elite gully)
Alan Davidson (handy bat, pace, elite leg slip/gully)
Shane Warne (handy bat, leg spin, good slip)
Joel Garner (handy bat, pace, elite gully)
@Prince EWS
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
I’ll just submit a team that has it all

Bob Simpson (bat, leg spin, elite slip)
Farohk Engineer (bat, keeper)
Viv Richards (bat, off spin, elite slip)
Wally Hammond (bat, med pace, elite slip)
Mark Waugh (bat, med pace/off, elite slip)
Keith Miller (bat, pace, elite slip)
Jack Gregory (good bat, pace, elite slip)
Richie Benaud (good bat, leg spin, elite gully)
Alan Davidson (handy bat, pace, elite leg slip/gully)
Shane Warne (handy bat, leg spin, good slip)
Joel Garner (handy bat, pace, elite gully)
Man that outfield is gonna suck!
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
I’ll just submit a team that has it all

Bob Simpson (bat, leg spin, elite slip)
Farohk Engineer (bat, keeper)
Viv Richards (bat, off spin, elite slip)
Wally Hammond (bat, med pace, elite slip)
Mark Waugh (bat, med pace/off, elite slip)
Keith Miller (bat, pace, elite slip)
Jack Gregory (good bat, pace, elite slip)
Richie Benaud (good bat, leg spin, elite gully)
Alan Davidson (handy bat, pace, elite leg slip/gully)
Shane Warne (handy bat, leg spin, good slip)
Joel Garner (handy bat, pace, elite gully)
Looking back I should have definitely included Kallis, and possibly Greg Chappell also.
 

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Nobody is replacing Inzi for Richardson. That's mental. And Hammond and Miller are roughly cricketers as good as each other, it depends on the spot you can have either in an ATG XI.

The real question is if you would have Smith or Hammond over Tendulkar based on slips? No.

It's a bogus analogy.
I would never drop Inzy for a lesser batsman to get a better slip fielder. I would however, do it to get a better runner and caller between the wickets to reduce run outs and get more singles/turn 2s into 3s etc.

Should judging singles, running between wickets etc. be added to the auxiliary skill list?
It often decides white ball matches.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Nobody is replacing Inzi for Richardson. That's mental. And Hammond and Miller are roughly cricketers as good as each other, it depends on the spot you can have either in an ATG XI.

The real question is if you would have Smith or Hammond over Tendulkar based on slips? No.

It's a bogus analogy.
Both based ideas tbh. It only makes sense that a small difference in batting can be compensated by a large difference in slip fielding.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Both based ideas tbh. It only makes sense that a small difference in batting can be compensated by a large difference in slip fielding.
Yeah but is Kyear going to ever argue for Smith over Tendulkar based on slips? No, even though it's the logical extension of his argument.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I would never drop Inzy for a lesser batsman to get a better slip fielder. I would however, do it to get a better runner and caller between the wickets to reduce run outs and get more singles/turn 2s into 3s etc.

Should judging singles, running between wickets etc. be added to the auxiliary skill list?
It often decides white ball matches.
I think that still counts as assessing him on batting.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Yeah but is Kyear going to ever argue for Smith over Tendulkar based on slips? No, even though it's the logical extension of his argument.
Not sure about that. If he wants Richardson over Inzamam then I think he probably wants Smith/Hammond over Tendulkar too.

I think that still counts as assessing him on batting.
It's debatable IMO, because bad running between the wickets affected both Inzi's average and his partners'.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not sure about that. If he wants Richardson over Inzamam then I think he probably wants Smith/Hammond over Tendulkar too.
He doesn't. He clearly states Tendulkar is a near confirmed lock in his ATG XI. He would never put Smith or Hammond in his first XI. Hence the contradiction.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
He doesn't. He clearly states Tendulkar is a near confirmed lock in his ATG XI. He would never put Smith or Hammond in his first XI. Hence the contradiction.
That's strange. It's like selecting Imran over McGrath when Imran gets you 50 more runs a match – it's absurd! :ph34r:
 

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